Was Usagi a hero or a villain?

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Maraviollantes

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#21
That´s normally called combat when their enemies are armed and the Senshi themselves face very mortal threats.

Executing someone is when you have time to think about it, a person who can´t resist you effectively, and the guards and executioners and everyone else is not at immediate risk, and you intend to apply it usually for some kind of societal or personal beliefs about it resolving some kind of general problem or believe it to be an act that brings about justice rather than immediate safety to you and others.

The only thing Tobihaneru did was setting up a trampoline and then he jumped on it up and down together with Sailor Moon and Chibimoon. He was basically just fooling around and made no attempt to harm anybody. What Sailor Moon did was a cold blood murder - because I don't see how anyone in their sane mind could justify killing him as reasonable self-defense in a combat situation. There were quite a few other cases like that, I think.

Try first having you, your family, or your friends in situations that victims from Sailor Moon series experienced (murder, mindfuck, mental enslavement, having your pet harmed, etc...), and then come back defending those scumbags.

Sure, there are some who were the controlled victims themselves, but in most cases they are just terrorists.
Are you addressing the OP, or some other post in this thread? :confused:
 
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Psajdak

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#22
@Maraviollantes

Let me put it in Walter White's words: Most Sailor Moon villains are insane, degenerate pieces of filth, and they deserve to die.

Can you even imagine the Earth without Sailor Senshi being there, risking their lives (and losing it) to defend it?

Adressed at @Everyone.
 

Maraviollantes

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#23
I tend to give that to Galaxia. She gets a song that directly makes her a dictator, and an interstellar conqueror like Palpatine (if he was actually sexy and she didn´t have the Senate).
Galaxia was a villain because she wanted to conquer and rule entire planets that never belonged to her, and that she had no legitimate rights for. Killing everybody who opposed her in the process. Exactly the same goals Sailor Moon pursued, and same methods. Bad, bad Galaxia.
 
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#24
I don’t know, I find them to be pretty one-dimensional in the Manga/Crystal, evil psychopaths just for the sake of being evil psychopaths. [...] You’re right though that it does beg the question how and why exactly they ended up that way...
See, and then you go on to speculate for like two paragraphs what's up with them, that's why I find them so interesting lol. You're right that their actions in the story are one-dimensional, but how they got there, which is unexplored and only vaguely hinted at, is really interesting to think about.

Galaxia was a villain because she wanted to conquer and rule entire planets that never belonged to her, and that she had no legitimate rights for. Killing everybody who opposed her in the process. Exactly the same goals Sailor Moon pursued, and same methods. Bad, bad Galaxia.
But Sailor Moon, or rather Neo Queen Serenity, never attempted to conquer or rule over planets that didn't belong to her, at least as far as we know from what we saw of the future. You can argue that perhaps Queen Serenity did conquer the Solar System and force the planetary guardians to serve her, but even if she had, she didn't conquer and rule over Earth, she didn't kill others that we saw (she merely sealed Nehelenia), and she didn't expand beyond the Solar System.

I think Galaxia was also killing everyone in the planets she conquered, not just people who stood against her. Sailor Moon only kills people who threaten Earth, and when she's Neo Queen Serenity she doesn't even do that (she exiled Death Phantom). I think it's all different.
 

Maraviollantes

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#25
But Sailor Moon, or rather Neo Queen Serenity, never attempted to conquer or rule over planets that didn't belong to her, at least as far as we know from what we saw of the future.
If you don't count planet Earth, that is.

Sailor Moon only kills people who threaten Earth
Who threaten her particular vision of the future order she planned for Earth and beyond - the vision that never was voted on or approved by anybody, and that she never had any authority to enforce.
 
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#26
If you don't count planet Earth, that is.
But she didn't conquer Earth, she married Earth's king and that's why they both rule over it in the future. We could certainly question the validity of monarchy and their right to rule, but either way she didn't conquer any planet.

Who threaten her particular vision of the future order she planned for Earth and beyond - the vision that never was voted on or approved by anybody, and that she never got any authority to enforce.
This part is true. I think it's King Endymion who says that eternal life has always been mankind's dream and that implies Crystal Tokyo's rule was welcomed, but we don't know for sure if people rejected eternal life and peace other than Death Phantom and Black Moon, who would have been left alone anyway if they hadn't turned violent towards people who did want peace.
 

Maraviollantes

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#27
But she didn't conquer Earth, she married Earth's king and that's why they both rule over it in the future.
It was never presented in the series as a legitimate reason for why Usagi had authority to take over and rule the entire planet.

We could certainly question the validity of monarchy and their right to rule, but either way she didn't conquer any planet.
We are never said what exactly happened to independent nations and how they got replaced by only one planetary ruler.

What we do know for a fact is that during 200 episodes, Sailor Moon murdered overwhelming majority of her opponents, and spared lives of very few. Violence and murder are her preferred tools of dealing with problems, not conversation or compromise.

We also know for a fact that there are some 200 independent countries on this planet, that Usagi would have to somehow deal with on her way to power. Each country with their own government, armed forces, and often radically different values and goals.

No matter how much we try to bend reality in Usagi's favor, there is no way to present "peaceful unification" as the most feasible scenario explaining Crystal Tokyo phenomenon. For anybody capable of critical thinking and logical reasoning, that is.
 
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#28
What we do know for a fact is that during 200 episodes,
I was talking aboout the manga. The anime's continuity factors in the mysterious global freeze and that would change the origin of Crystal Tokyo, and its reception by mankind, considerably. Even if we take the anime into account, all those 200 episodes happened before Crystal Tokyo's inception and none of them were related to Sailor Moon "conquering" anything, like you argued at first when comparing her to Galaxia.

No matter how much we try to bend reality in Usagi's favor, there is no way to present "peaceful unification" as the most feasible scenario explaining Crystal Tokyo.
Yet that's the way the manga tries to present it, probably because it's a very utopic story. The manga doesn't tell us what happened, we don't even know if all countries did become unified or if Crystal Tokyo is more of a religious capital that everybody agrees to preserve because because extended global lifespans and world peace depend on preserving it. There's a lot we don't know but it doesn't make sense to bend reality opposite to Usagi either and claim that she "conquers" anything either or that she has "exactly" the same goals or methods as Galaxia when she clearly doesn't.
 
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Maraviollantes

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#29
Yet that's the way the manga tries to present it...
It does not. As you mentioned in the next sentence, it just doesn't tell us anything about it.

Even if we take the anime into account, all those 200 episodes happened before Crystal Tokyo's inception and none of them were related to Sailor Moon "conquering" anything, like you argued at first when comparing her to Galaxia.
I think you misunderstood my point. I mentioned 200 episodes not because they are proof of "conquering", but because they provide us with detailed characterization of Usagi's personality over extended period of time. She had to deal with 200 separate problems, and in, like, 95% of cases she resorted to violence and murder to solve them. Some 5% of problems ended up being resolved peacefully and without anybody dying, yes.

Which gives us a solid foundation for understanding how, most probably, she will deal with next 200 separate problems, and what % of them, realistically, will be dealt with through peaceful means. 200 independent governments backed by their armed forces, for instance.
 
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#30
Which gives us a solid foundation for understanding how, most probably, she will deal with next 200 separate problems, and what % of them, realistically, will be dealt with through peaceful means. 200 independent governments backed by their armed forces, for instance.
But that's just conjecture. The manga never even implies that Sailor Moon/Neo Queen Serenity just offed 200 armed forces. We're never explicitly told otherwise, King Endymion just says most of the planet lives longer and is at peace and that's it, but we can't just present our headcanons as fact.

What we do know, which disproves your original comparison, is that all instances of Sailor Moon using lethal force happened while defending Earth and its inhabitants. She wasn't protecting "her vision" for Earth for when she "conquered it", she was protecting Earth from being destroyed by various factions or earthlings from being killed. This is quite different from Galaxia, who uses lethal force on everyone she comes across in an aggressive manner. Neo Queen Serenity didn't even kill anyone as far as we know, even though she could.

Furthermore, Galaxia was taking over every planet she could and killing everyone in them, and that is very different from Usagi marrying Earth's King and ruling one planet alongside him while giving everyone extended lifespans and world peace. Shadow Galactica aggressively pushed to conquer the entire galaxy and then some; Crystal Tokyo remained on Earth, had a millennium to expand, and never did. You could argue that they planned to conquer Nemesis since they were going to explore it for resources, but even then planning to mine one abandoned planet is nothing like conquering and committing genocide in every planet you can.

The basic difference is that Sailor Galaxia used lethal force to be an aggressive conqueror, while Sailor Moon used lethal force to protect her own ground. Like I said, we can question her right to rule Earth (or rather, Endymion's right to rule it), but it's a reach to try to argue that she had the "exact" same methods and goals as Galaxia when they're nearly opposite to one another.

Black Lady - nothing is worse than a bad person you have some emotional attachment to.
She's not the most dangerous compared to Shadow Galactica, but she was close to achieving the most damage to the protagonists. If Pluto hadn't died, who knows if they would have been able to defeat Death Phantom with Black Lady at his side...
 
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#31
It does not. As you mentioned in the next sentence, it just doesn't tell us anything about it.


I think you misunderstood my point. I mentioned 200 episodes not because they are proof of "conquering", but because they provide us with detailed characterization of Usagi's personality over extended period of time. She had to deal with 200 separate problems, and in, like, 95% of cases she resorted to violence and murder to solve them. Some 5% of problems ended up being resolved peacefully and without anybody dying, yes.

Which gives us a solid foundation for understanding how, most probably, she will deal with next 200 separate problems, and what % of them, realistically, will be dealt with through peaceful means. 200 independent governments backed by their armed forces, for instance.
Monarchs don´t have to have political power, and in Japan that is even more true where the emperor has essentially zero authority, either de jure or de facto. Usagi, to the degree she is politically literate at all, would never be thinking of the emperor as a dictator, the last time they had strong powers was in the Heian era, 1200 years ago. The world elects a secretary general every 5 years and people mostly forget about them because of their rather weak authority, even though they actually do in fact do administrative work and are endorsed periodically by major powers.
 

Clow

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#32
What we do know for a fact is that during 200 episodes, Sailor Moon murdered overwhelming majority of her opponents, and spared lives of very few. Violence and murder are her preferred tools of dealing with problems, not conversation or compromise.
… Uh? No, I am not buying any of that.

:kero:

From a literary and interpretive point of view, Sailor Moon is a very uncomplicated story. It follows the oversimplified, recurrent and universal theme of good versus evil. The writer defines the good guys and the baddies from the very beginning and goes as far as exploring the Manichaean idea of dualism by acknowledging the existence of two entities: Cosmos (balance) and Chaos (disorder).

And Stars is a brilliantly written arc because the true villain isn’t even Chaos. Sailor Cosmos is the villain. She is traumatized by all the wars and exhausted of fighting Chaos. She wishes to end the universe… but Sailor Moon, the heroine, the morally virtuous “goody two-shoes,” inspires Sailor Cosmos to keep fighting.

It’s as simple as that.
 
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#33
… Uh? No, I am not buying any of that.

:kero:

From a literary and interpretive point of view, Sailor Moon is a very uncomplicated story. It follows the oversimplified, recurrent and universal theme of good versus evil. The writer defines the good guys and the baddies from the very beginning and goes as far as exploring the Manichaean idea of dualism by acknowledging the existence of two entities: Cosmos (balance) and Chaos (disorder).

And Stars is a brilliantly written arc because the true villain isn’t even Chaos. Sailor Cosmos is the villain. She is traumatized by all the wars and exhausted of fighting Chaos. She wishes to end the universe… but Sailor Moon, the heroine, the morally virtuous “goody two-shoes,” inspires Sailor Cosmos to keep fighting.

It’s as simple as that.
Mani did preach that but I am more so thinking of Zoroaster.
 
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#34
See, and then you go on to speculate for like two paragraphs what's up with them, that's why I find them so interesting lol. You're right that their actions in the story are one-dimensional, but how they got there, which is unexplored and only vaguely hinted at, is really interesting to think about.
Yeah I meant more so that their characterizations are flat and caricatured, their background though is certainly intriguing and begs more exploration. I think it speaks to/says a lot about the underlying issues inherent in Crystal Tokyo and that maybe it’s not the absolute perfect utopia the manga tries to make it out to be. Clearly there are problems and a seedy underbelly.

Manga BMC’s background is more interesting for what it says about Crystal Tokyo as a “utopia” than it does any of it’s members.


Black Lady - nothing is worse than a bad person you have some emotional attachment to.
Maybe not the most dangerous but she’s certainly the scariest to the audience what with how she jumpscared everyone with that kiss! :P
 

Clow

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#35
Sailor Moon is such a prototype of a good character with high moral virtues and unconditional kindness that she saves Galaxia from Chaos—after everything Galaxia did to infuse her with despair.

So, no, Sailor Moon is not a cruel and oppressive tyrant. She even gave strength to Sailor Cosmos, so that the universe could continue existing.

but I totally get that many fans would like a seinen story exploring Sailor Moon or an alternate form of Sailor Moon as an evil character.
 
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#36
So, no, Sailor Moon is not a cruel and oppressive tyrant.
I want to add that as Neo Queen Serenity she didn't kill her dissenter even though she totally could, and exiled him instead so that he wouldn't harm others. There's also that brief moment where she tries to get Black Moon to repent and realize that if they hadn't embraced violence they could all live happy. She's never cruel or oppressive to them as far as we can see.

but I totally get that many fans would like a seinen story exploring Sailor Moon or an alternate form of Sailor Moon as an evil character.
Well, the manga vaguely hints at the idea that Crystal Tokyo might not be all that good, that imposing extended lifespans and world peace has a downside, as vaguely touched upon by Black Moon. It never follows up on this though, and Black Moon was clearly crazy in the end, but that notion leaves some wiggle room to philosophically argue that Endymion and Serenity could be seen as benevolent tyrants who forced eternal life on everyone and stripped away free will in some form.

Since there's not a lot of actual information as to how Crystal Tokyo was established, even this is a reach, but I get how it's interesting to think about it and it could lead to a more seinen-oriented story if explored further. Maybe Sailor Moon being so good that in order to maintain or enforce good deeds she becomes oppressive in some way, that sort of thing.
 
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#38
I want to add that as Neo Queen Serenity she didn't kill her dissenter even though she totally could, and exiled him instead so that he wouldn't harm others. There's also that brief moment where she tries to get Black Moon to repent and realize that if they hadn't embraced violence they could all live happy. She's never cruel or oppressive to them as far as we can see.


Well, the manga vaguely hints at the idea that Crystal Tokyo might not be all that good, that imposing extended lifespans and world peace has a downside, as vaguely touched upon by Black Moon. It never follows up on this though, and Black Moon was clearly crazy in the end, but that notion leaves some wiggle room to philosophically argue that Endymion and Serenity could be seen as benevolent tyrants who forced eternal life on everyone and stripped away free will in some form.

Since there's not a lot of actual information as to how Crystal Tokyo was established, even this is a reach, but I get how it's interesting to think about it and it could lead to a more seinen-oriented story if explored further. Maybe Sailor Moon being so good that in order to maintain or enforce good deeds she becomes oppressive in some way, that sort of thing.
I don´t think that NQS personally arrested and tried those associated with who would become the Black Moon Clan. King Endymion said that treason, terrorism, and mass murder were the least of their crimes. Japan definitely hangs people for that, think of the sarin gas attack, and a majority of people live in places where it is majority accepted that it is appropriate in some instances and I think planetary destruction and attempted conquest would in those people´s opinion be a good time to use that. NQS though might be willing to let them go in exile, especially if they had been imprisoned for decades through appeals and delays.
 
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#39
I don´t think that NQS personally arrested and tried those associated with who would become the Black Moon Clan. King Endymion said that treason, terrorism, and mass murder were the least of their crimes. Japan definitely hangs people for that, think of the sarin gas attack, and a majority of people live in places where it is majority accepted that it is appropriate in some instances and I think planetary destruction and attempted conquest would in those people´s opinion be a good time to use that. NQS though might be willing to let them go in exile, especially if they had been imprisoned for decades through appeals and delays.
No she didn’t, the only one she ever exiled and banished was Phantom - and for good reason considering he’s just another Eldritch incarnation of Chaos. If anything I feel Manga NQS was too soft on the BMC, she just let them run wild in their rampage, likely because they were humans. It still boggles my mind on how the fandom mischaracterizes her as some sort of brutal dictator.
 

Maraviollantes

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#40
But that's just conjecture. The manga never even implies that Sailor Moon/Neo Queen Serenity just offed 200 armed forces. We're never explicitly told otherwise, King Endymion just says most of the planet lives longer and is at peace and that's it, but we can't just present our headcanons as fact.
Yes. It's a conjecture based on critical analysis of known facts, and consistent with Usagi's personality. The opposite conjecture - that Usagi somehow peacefully talked 200 independent governments into surrendering and just accepting her as the sole legitimating ruler, is not consistent with the facts we know, and not consistent with her personality.

What we do know, which disproves your original comparison, is that all instances of Sailor Moon using lethal force happened while defending Earth and its inhabitants.
Again, it was her own interpretation of what constitutes "defense", without anybody ever asking and giving her any authority to participate in conflicts and decide who deserves to die and who deserves to live. Who, specifically, and in which criminal code, defined that draining energy (non-lethal action) deserves an instant lethal punishment without any trial and courts? What kind of crime lemure Tobihaneru ever committed that justified murdering him on the spot?

For all we know, Usagi could justify executing world leaders for polluting oceans with plastic as reasonable "defense" of Earth, which would also conveniently open her way towards ruling the world. And before you say it's a conjecture, yes, it is - a conjecture consistent with facts we know and with Usagi's personality.

...while Sailor Moon used lethal force to protect her own ground.
"Her own ground" is the Moon. On Earth Usagi is a foreign invader, not any different from Galaxia and others. She never had any authority to participate in any armed conflicts on the planet and decide who gets to rule it.
 
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