We will get to see Haruka and Usagi's kiss?

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kamen_glider

Luna Crescens
Jul 10, 2012
182
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#81
Neon, I see what you're getting at now. You're definitely right about every fan being different and having different mileages. I just think it's important to recognize elements that can be hurtful I guess.
I agree that Naoko was really limited by her perspective (as you say) when she wrote the manga, so I can't really fault her for being limited on LGBT issues. She's still pretty awesome :P
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#82
kamen_glider said:
SailorWelshy said:
kamen_glider said:
What's particularly offensive about it is that Haruka and Michiru are the only lesbian couple in the entire story.
How is that offensive? :?
Sigh, it's offensive because the only lesbian couple get treated like utter sh*te, as if their relationship doesn't matter. As a lesbian woman am I allowed to be offended about it, or am I just being too sensitive? Come on.
That's because they are not the main characters. That's why they don't get the main focus.

That's not being offensive.

So yes, I do think you're being too sensitive.

You have to remember that the manga and anime were made in the 90's, a time when gay people were still seen as "other people". There was nothing legal for them, with the exception of not immediately being sent to the nearest insane asylum.

And gay people weren't allowed to be main characters or even show up at all. Why do you think that Uranus and Neptune were turned into cousins in the first English dub? Because gay people were still not allowed to be seen in media. Society itself wasn't even allowed to talk about gay people.

Having a gay couple in Sailor Moon was a huge leap at the time because the two were happily in love with each other, and none of the other characters despised them over it.

I don't know how you can be offended over a gay couple allowing to be happy with each other in the 90's, when other works would have made them insane or delusional.
 

Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
2,472
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#83
To be fair, while I love the new ED (like seriously adore it, it's probably my favorite ED song in the entirety of Sailor Moon period) - I do think it's very misleading in terms of making people think Uranus and Neptune's relationship would have a bigger focus in the anime. I don't think they even intended this, I think it was just to throw a bone to the fans knowing how little the anime would focus on their feelings towards each other, but it can give people a different impression.

So while, yes, Sailor Moon and her love interest are the main characters because this is following the manga, it's kind of unfair to preach against people who have different expectations when Crystal sometimes actively builds on people's hype (another example is the eye-catches).

I'm loving the new season, but part of me also can't wait for them to cover all of the manga just so they could get out of the way and then in 5-10 years when we, inevitably, get another reboot or maybe even a sequel, it won't adhere so strictly to any source material and will do something completely new.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#84
Can I aslo just say Sailor moon is not shoujo ai,or a yuri. So acourse there not going to be a lot of develpment of Hauka,andd Micheru relationship. There not the main characters,and not the focus of the story.Besides we still see they love each other.I hardly see a lot gay couples in reguar shojou. The only couple I saw was gay ,other than Hariuka ,and Micheru. was in Ariena Tanemura manga. Were there were two guys,but one still dress up and act like a girl. So yah :/,and the author who made them said she wasn't realyinterested in thoes kinda yaoi manga.
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#85
SakuyamonX said:
So while, yes, Sailor Moon and her love interest are the main characters because this is following the manga, it's kind of unfair to preach against people who have different expectations when Crystal sometimes actively builds on people's hype (another example is the eye-catches).
No, No,No,No,No.

You just said it yourself, this anime is following the manga. In other words, there should be no other expectations. So no its not unfair for me to call this criticism out, if people were expecting something completely different, then that's their own fault for thinking that.
 

Maraviollantes

Sailor Moon fan #1
Staff member
Site Admin
Jan 3, 2006
9,328
643
665
Embelyon
shoujocity.com
#86
SailorWelshy said:
You have to remember that the manga and anime were made in the 90's, a time when gay people were still seen as "other people". There was nothing legal for them, with the exception of not immediately being sent to the nearest insane asylum.
What a nice progress we made since those scary times! These days it's completely different, and nobody would poke a finger at you for acting differently and not fitting our definition of correct sexual behavior, right? We don't have any "other people" already whom we want to send to the nearest insane asylum for daring to offend our definition of the only correct and the only allowed sexual behavior, right? :P

Neon Genesis said:
As a gay male Sailor Moon fan, I thought the 90s anime portrayal of Zoisite and Kunzite's relationship was offensive
kamen_glider said:
As a lesbian woman am I allowed to be offended about it
^ :oh:
 

Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
2,472
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#87
SailorWelshy said:
You just said it yourself, this anime is following the manga. In other words, there should be no other expectations. So no its not unfair for me to call this criticism out, if people were expecting something completely different, then that's their own fault for thinking that.
I just find it really rude when people in this fandom try to shut down discussions like this. If you love the manga and love Crystal by default, great! Not everyone is going to see eye to eye, and even fans of the manga, like myself, think that it can be improved especially when it comes to the way it portrays the LGBT community considering it's been 20 years.

Plus, the show is airing on TV now. Do you honestly expect everyone who is watching in Japan to be familiar with the source material? Is that really fair? Not everyone is obsessed with Sailor Moon.
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#88
SakuyamonX said:
SailorWelshy said:
You just said it yourself, this anime is following the manga. In other words, there should be no other expectations. So no its not unfair for me to call this criticism out, if people were expecting something completely different, then that's their own fault for thinking that.
I just find it really rude when people in this fandom try to shut down discussions like this. If you love the manga and love Crystal by default, great! Not everyone is going to see eye to eye, and even fans of the manga, like myself, think that it can be improved especially when it comes to the way it portrays the LGBT community considering it's been 20 years.
Are you telling me a book that was written 20 years ago in a different social climate does not fit the standard of modern times? Shock! Horror!

Plus, the show is airing on TV now. Do you honestly expect everyone who is watching in Japan to be familiar with the source material? Is that really fair? Not everyone is obsessed with Sailor Moon.
You can easily find information about the series on the internet, Google is your friend.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#89
Or maybe they were promoting them as characters?Not necessarily there relationship,but as them as characters. You still have a lot of scenes with them in the Infinity arc.When I saw the trailer,it was promoting them as characters. It didn't promote mostly about there relationship. But promote then as characters.
 

NYUsagi

Luna Nova
Oct 15, 2011
77
0
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#90
SakuyamonX said:
To be fair, while I love the new ED (like seriously adore it, it's probably my favorite ED song in the entirety of Sailor Moon period) - I do think it's very misleading in terms of making people think Uranus and Neptune's relationship would have a bigger focus in the anime. I don't think they even intended this, I think it was just to throw a bone to the fans knowing how little the anime would focus on their feelings towards each other, but it can give people a different impression.

So while, yes, Sailor Moon and her love interest are the main characters because this is following the manga, it's kind of unfair to preach against people who have different expectations when Crystal sometimes actively builds on people's hype (another example is the eye-catches).

I'm loving the new season, but part of me also can't wait for them to cover all of the manga just so they could get out of the way and then in 5-10 years when we, inevitably, get another reboot or maybe even a sequel, it won't adhere so strictly to any source material and will do something completely new.
Well as soon as Infinity was confirmed to only have 13 episodes, I pretty much knew what to expect and that was a strict manga adaptation with no room for further character development to flesh out the other characters. Whatever little we get from the manga of Haruka and Michiru's relationship (ie: their embrace from act 28) is all that we will be getting. Which is a shame but then again, Crystal never promised to be anything else other than following the manga closely. And the staff saw the outrage Dark Kingdom got when they took liberties to change the story when it was following the 1:1 ration leaving no room for development of the plot changes.

SailorWelshy said:
SakuyamonX said:
So while, yes, Sailor Moon and her love interest are the main characters because this is following the manga, it's kind of unfair to preach against people who have different expectations when Crystal sometimes actively builds on people's hype (another example is the eye-catches).
No, No,No,No,No.

You just said it yourself, this anime is following the manga. In other words, there should be no other expectations. So no its not unfair for me to call this criticism out, if people were expecting something completely different, then that's their own fault for thinking that.
This pretty much. I hope there weren't people that were expecting anything different as soon as 13 episodes was announced. That was just setting themselves up for disappointment.
 

Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
2,472
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#91
Ok, SailorWelshy, I was trying to explain in a reasonable and calm manner why some people would be disappointed with how two incredibly iconic characters are shown in anime, but you're acting incredibly rude and condescending so I'm going to disengage with you.

imaginationgirl said:
Or maybe they were promoting them as characters?Not necessarily there relationship,but as them as characters. You still have a lot of scenes with them in the Infinity arc.When I saw the trailer,it was promoting them as characters. It didn't promote mostly about there relationship. But promote then as characters.
If they were separate endings I'd agree. But everything from the lyrics and visuals pretty much celebrate their relationship.

Again, not saying that they were trying to be misleading, just talking about how some people would take to it. This fandom would be a lot healthier if people didn't try to actively police people's expectations and feelings, or talk down to them.

Also, I saw a lot of people say that they were expecting the kiss and knew it was going to happen because of the manga, but still felt uncomfortable watching it because of the problems associated with it.
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#92
SakuyamonX said:
Ok, SailorWelshy, I was trying to explain in a reasonable and calm manner why some people would be disappointed with how two incredibly iconic characters are shown in anime.
If by "disappointed", you mean they completely made up their own expectations and found out that a show didn't meet those unrealistic expectations. Then yes I would 100% agree with you.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#93
SakuyamonX said:
Ok, SailorWelshy, I was trying to explain in a reasonable and calm manner why some people would be disappointed with how two incredibly iconic characters are shown in anime, but you're acting incredibly rude and condescending so I'm going to disengage with you.

imaginationgirl said:
Or maybe they were promoting them as characters?Not necessarily there relationship,but as them as characters. You still have a lot of scenes with them in the Infinity arc.When I saw the trailer,it was promoting them as characters. It didn't promote mostly about there relationship. But promote then as characters.
If they were separate endings I'd agree. But everything from the lyrics and visuals pretty much celebrate their relationship.

Again, not saying that they were trying to be misleading,
.
Anime openings,and endings are hardly ever represent what s going to happen in the show.To me there like mini music videos,you see for fun.There not like American openings,where they repersent what s going happen.Or what s there show about.Including there songs as well.So I don't think anyone is going to assume were going see there relationship a lot with that ending.
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#94
imaginationgirl said:
Anime openings,and endings are hardly ever represent what s going to happen in the show.To me there like mini music videos,you see for fun..
Case in point: The Phoenix Wright Anime Opening. If people think the opening represents the anime, then they might be slightly disappointed that there's not much running in it.
 

meekxthree

Lumen Cinererum
Dec 18, 2014
492
5
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#95
I do get what you're saying SakuyamonX. I was actually kind of scared they were going to rewrite bits of the manga to include alot more HarukaxMichiru because the ending made their relationship look like a huge focus. I would like to clarify, I am not saying any LGBT relationships shown in media are ever bad, or different, or should be treated differently. What I'm saying is I don't want Neptune and Uranus' personalities to be devalued by their relationship status. I'm so happy there is a gay couple in Sailor Moon, it's so great that there's representation for that, but at the same time it feels like you can't think of Uranus without thinking of Neptune too. It's hard to see them as individuals characters rather than just "the lesbians". In the ED they really seem to be pushing the togetherness, but in the episodes so far it seems to be okay. I mean, we don't think of Sailor Moon and instantly think "the one in love with Tuxedo Mask". I mean, at least I don't, I'm not sure about others. I've brought up this particular topic before this season was out, but the ED really reminded me of my issue with Haruka and Michiru's assumed personalities.
 

Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
2,472
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#96
imaginationgirl said:
Anime openings,and endings are hardly ever represent what s going to happen in the show.To me there like mini music videos,you see for fun.There not like American openings,where they repersent what s going happen.Or what s there show about.Including there songs as well.So I don't think anyone is going to assume were going see there relationship a lot with that ending.
True. But I do think they usually represent the show symbolically.

That said, I think people saw how the UraxNep eyecatches and ending mirrored the UsaxMamo centric S1&S2 eyecatches/ending, and mistakenly thought they would add more focus to Uranus and Neptune. That's all. At the end of the day, if they're disappointed it shouldn't affect anyone else's enjoyment.
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#97
meekxthree said:
I mean, we don't think of Sailor Moon and instantly think "the one in love with Tuxedo Mask". I mean, at least I don't, I'm not sure about others.
Well there are some corners of fandom. Lol. :D

What I'm saying is I don't want Neptune and Uranus' personalities to be devalued by their relationship status. I'm so happy there is a gay couple in Sailor Moon, it's so great that there's representation for that, but at the same time it feels like you can't think of Uranus without thinking of Neptune too. It's hard to see them as individuals characters rather than just "the lesbians".
I understand this, but once again its not offensive. (As this is what started this argument) Its just lack of character development. That's a writing problem, its nothing to do with gay politics.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#98
Yes,I agree with that meetex. In fandom you see like they see Haruka,and Micheru as a pair. And not as individual characters ,people look at them like "the lesbians" instead of characters.There s more to them,besides there relationship.It s one par t of them,not the only thing about thoes two.
 
Jul 21, 2014
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#99
imaginationgirl said:
Yes,I agree with that meetex. In fandom you see like they see Haruka,and Micheru as a pair. And not as individual characters ,people look at them like "the lesbians" instead of characters.There s more to them,besides there relationship.It s one par t of them,not the only thing about thoes two.
The problem is Michiru, because she is just nice. And really that's all you need to know. She's a fine character, but there's not that much to her.

Haruka has development, her own personality and does interesting actions. (Mind out of gutter people.)
 

Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
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meekxthree said:
I do get what you're saying SakuyamonX. I was actually kind of scared they were going to rewrite bits of the manga to include alot more HarukaxMichiru because the ending made their relationship look like a huge focus. I would like to clarify, I am not saying any LGBT relationships shown in media are ever bad, or different, or should be treated differently. What I'm saying is I don't want Neptune and Uranus' personalities to be devalued by their relationship status. I'm so happy there is a gay couple in Sailor Moon, it's so great that there's representation for that, but at the same time it feels like you can't think of Uranus without thinking of Neptune too. It's hard to see them as individuals characters rather than just "the lesbians". In the ED they really seem to be pushing the togetherness, but in the episodes so far it seems to be okay. I mean, we don't think of Sailor Moon and instantly think "the one in love with Tuxedo Mask". I mean, at least I don't, I'm not sure about others. I've brought up this particular topic before this season was out, but the ED really reminded me of my issue with Haruka and Michiru's assumed personalities.
Yeah, I get where you're coming from because I do feel like Haruka and Michiru's relationship gets fetishized by the fandom, some of whom are actually straight.

Oh well, it won't matter once we get to Dream considering there's one act that's literally just Outers Family Fun Time, and pretty much builds on the relationships between Haruka, Michiru, Setsuna and Hotaru. I'm sure a lot of fans of HaruXMichi will be happy to see that. :)