What are some double standards or hypocrisy in the fandom and in the show?

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Mystical Moonbow

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Nov 10, 2016
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In Santa’s Sleigh
#1
This is a post that I made on Reddit. Thought I could share it here as well.

This can go for both within any of the versions of Sailor moon or the Sailor Moon fandom itself.

Here’s some that I’ve heard from some parts of the fandom so far:

“People getting on Prince Demande for kissing or trying to steal a kiss from Usagi when Tuxedo Mask did the same back in season one”

“ Naru’s and Nephrite’s and Zoisite and Kunzite’s age gaps not being used as a reason they shouldn’t be together when it’s always used as a reason why Usagi and Mamoru shouldn’t be together”

“ Tuxedo Mask is useless and doesn’t do anything yet people say he buys time for Sailor Moon, protects and saves her when needed, and has helped her fight the bad guy a few times in the anime”.


“Queen Beryl brainwashing and seducing Mamoru isn’t seen or treated as creepy and violating as Demande and Usagi”

“Rei or Seiya teases Usagi because they like her romantically, but Mamoru is a only a bully and wants to make Usagi’s life miserable”


That’s all I can remember right now. Do you have anymore that I’ve missed?
 
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Likes: Nadia

Onuzim Ima

Aurorae Lunares
Aug 11, 2010
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#2
  • The Dark Kingdom and the BMC are both seen as creepy while for different reasons; but is Crystal Tokyo really so much better under the circumstances? "Give up your freedom to be evil or face the consequences and give up your right to live here"? That's the seed of Dictatorship, or is it?
  • It's okay for each of the girls to be fans of Three Lights and Pop Culture, but Heaven forbid if :ami: does so, too… :angry: Why can't a Nerd/Genius have Hobbies? Sheldon Cooper, anyone?
 

Maraviollantes

Sailor Moon fan #1
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#3
“ Tuxedo Mask is useless and doesn’t do anything yet people say he buys time for Sailor Moon, protects and saves her when needed, and has helped her fight the bad guy a few times in the anime”.
This is criticism of Tuxedo Mask, not an example "double standard". Double standard means the same rule/morals being applied to different people in different (unfair) manner. Like, if there was another useless hero throwing flowers around and then disappearing, but who was universally mocked by fans and/or within the series itself, while Tuxedo Mask was being praised and seen as true hero for doing exactly the same.
 
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Mystical Moonbow

Lumen Cinererum
Nov 10, 2016
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In Santa’s Sleigh
#4
This is criticism of Tuxedo Mask, not an example "double standard". Double standard means the same rule/morals being applied to different people in different (unfair) manner. Like, if there was another useless hero throwing flowers around and then disappearing, but who was universally mocked by fans and/or within the series itself, while Tuxedo Mask was being praised and seen as true hero for doing exactly the same.
Then it can count as people being hypocritical since they say one thing that opposes their previous statements
 

yaya_ikuto

Lumen Cinererum
Jan 16, 2018
348
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#5
seen manga usagi like creepy or bad but saying 90s usagi is better when she is insecure and she implied pedo when she constantly be jealous of chibi usa or said bad things

the constant looking bad at chibi usa because in the manga she said a frase saying i know mamoru is my dad and never be hers, and in the 90s anime she even said she is mamoru girlfriend owo

the i want something like the 90s anime for crystal, than they have it and now said i want something original puf
 
Feb 16, 2021
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#6
People who accuse Crystal of being shallow and rushed yet praise the manga for the same story.
To be fair, I also fall into this category, since I just find the pacing in the manga slightly less jarring in some scenes, but worse in others.

Alternatively: People who praise Naoko's manga writing but trash Eternal. (Again I land here a lot of the time, lol)


And my thoughts on these:

“People getting on Prince Demande for kissing or trying to steal a kiss from Usagi when Tuxedo Mask did the same back in season one”

Even back in the 90s, kissing someone without consent was a bit creepy, but the context here does make a big difference. I'm not condoning kissing passed out girls, but the huge difference here is that by this point they have both started to fall in love as they reconnect to past memories. He had no right to, but his kiss came from a good place and through the author's eyes was most likely seen as consensual and romantic for them both, like a fairy tale kiss. They had just shared a dance and a life or death situation.
Demande, on the other hand, wanted to violate Usagi. He was taking pleasure in forcing himself on her and taking what he wanted. He undressed her while she was unconscious, tortured her friends, had been stalking her (or a version of her) and made it clear her choice didn't matter in both anime and manga.

“ Naru’s and Nephrite’s and Zoisite and Kunzite’s age gaps not being used as a reason they shouldn’t be together when it’s always used as a reason why Usagi and Mamoru shouldn’t be together”

I don't think most people would say that Usagi and Mamoru shouldn't be together, but that the age difference is a bit much in the anime. But in the anime, Mamo also keeps her at arms' length. This is also 1990s Japan and not 2020s America. It's also of note that if the ages were switched, most people wouldn't bat an eye or they would be all *wink-wink-nudge-nudge* "way to go, Mamo, for getting an older woman!"
Manga Mamo is like 16-17 and Usagi is 13-14. For me, 13 and 16 seem more egregious than 14 and 17. Anime Mamo was stupidly aged up to 18. That one extra year makes a huge difference in people's minds and I agree. There is a world of difference between 13 and 18.
The anime never really gets inappropriate with it, at least.
With Naru and Nephrite, only shippers really cling to that as being okay. He is canonically 19 in the manga but no age is ever given in the anime. To me he seems like he's older, maybe 25 (I always thought he was like 30+ back then because of that voice and demeanor.)
The real issue with this relationship isn't even the age, it's that it really isn't even a relationship. He used her and manipulated a child by making her fall in love. Yes, he changed at the end, but I do not think he was romantically invested, he just realized the error of his ways and wanted to protect her. She was still naively clinging to the idea a grown man loved her and didn't care she was being used. It's still tragic and god writing, but I don't see it as comparable to Usagi and Mamo at all.


“Queen Beryl brainwashing and seducing Mamoru isn’t seen or treated as creepy and violating as Demande and Usagi”

It is creepy and violating, but on a different level. As far as we see no physical assault happened from Beryl...but she violated him in even deeper ways. She had him kill for her (manga) and used him like a puppert to attack people he cared about. Remember, this is being done to a young man between 16-18 with past trauma, memory issues and depression.
Demande's is more in your face shocking since he is touching and kissing Usagi, but on a psychological level, what Beryl did to Mamo and what Wiseman does to Chibi Usa is far darker.

“Rei or Seiya teases Usagi because they like her romantically, but Mamoru is a only a bully and wants to make Usagi’s life miserable”

Mamoru is a bit of a bully, but not really in a way that seriously hurts Usagi. It just makes her mad. She's also (even if unknowingly) instigating it by throwing trash around and acting a bit rude herself. His teasing later is from a good place.
Rei just enjoys being mean in classic. She not only bullies Usagi, she bullies Ami and would probably have bullied Makoto if she thought she could. We see Rei treat most everyone this way and she has a bad attitude problem and a temper she needs to keep in check, which she eventually does. I think she still very much cares for Usagi, and at least with her, the teasing is on more equal terms.
With Seiya...he/she is just a creeper most of the time. Maybe not intentionally, but their narcissistic attitude and stalker ways comes off as much worse than Mamo ever did for me, even if the age difference doesn't exist here.
I don't think Seiya is a bad person, but they don't really understand boundaries and even if they had good intentions they were also thoughtless and made everything about them.
 

sapphire91

Systema Solare
Jul 6, 2018
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#7
90s Seiya's fans. For me this is beyond terrible to obliterate Tuxedo Mask kissing the girl he knows that she loves him back albeit unconscious and it is destiny drawing them to each other and at the same time being so supportive over emotional abuser that knows very well the girl doesn't love them and use her vulnerability to force their feelings on her emotionally.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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#8
Woke fans in general. :googly:

Also overly competitive people craving attention. Encountered this one artist once who keeps stating he needs feedback who is also constantly complaining about someone on deviantart putting him down with his comments. I checked the comments and it's just someone giving his opinion on the character and not even directed at the art work. Then if you give this person an honest feedback on what needs to be fixed he'll just outright deny it. Apparently this artist is just fishing for compliments. I checked this artist's instagram and all of the photos are front shots of himself. XD #WhatAPatheticNarcissist

Spoiler: show
He was a former member here too who now hates this forum.
 

Yinggirl

Solaris Luna
Jul 21, 2003
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#9
Woke fans in general. :googly:

Also overly competitive people craving attention. Encountered this one artist once who keeps stating he needs feedback who is also constantly complaining about someone on deviantart putting him down with his comments. I checked the comments and it's just someone giving his opinion on the character and not even directed at the art work. Then if you give this person an honest feedback on what needs to be fixed he'll just outright deny it. Apparently this artist is just fishing for compliments. I checked this artist's instagram and all of the photos are front shots of himself. XD #WhatAPatheticNarcissist
That's why I created MissDramu. Because there were very ****ed up fans out there. Take example, MissDream who still believes she is like somehow like Usagi, despite having a hostile takeover of this forum over one simple disagreement.

Some Artists I rant on MissDramu don't like someone giving them criticism because they assume any different opinion is Hate Speech.

I hadn't updated my site, despite I should do a review of Eternal. I have the artbook of Eternal. And I agree, Naoko should had just ended her manga right there.

It saves Usagi from going into turmoil from seeing her fiance and friends killed, seeing her pets get attacked, tied up on stakes to ready to be set ablazed, sees her friends revived and wanting to kill her, thus watching them all die from her hand.

It was like, Naoko wanted to end it because she was feeling burnout. At least at Supers ended with everyone being together and Chibi Usa is her own Sailor Guardian and not a mini clone of Usagi.
 
#10
It saves Usagi from going into turmoil from seeing her fiance and friends killed, seeing her pets get attacked, tied up on stakes to ready to be set ablazed, sees her friends revived and wanting to kill her, thus watching them all die from her hand.
Yikes! It's so messed up seeing your friends being revived by the villain, then said friends want to kill you. Then, you kill them.
 
#11
People who accuse Crystal of being shallow and rushed yet praise the manga for the same story.
To be fair, I also fall into this category, since I just find the pacing in the manga slightly less jarring in some scenes, but worse in others.

Alternatively: People who praise Naoko's manga writing but trash Eternal. (Again I land here a lot of the time, lol)


And my thoughts on these:

“People getting on Prince Demande for kissing or trying to steal a kiss from Usagi when Tuxedo Mask did the same back in season one”

Even back in the 90s, kissing someone without consent was a bit creepy, but the context here does make a big difference. I'm not condoning kissing passed out girls, but the huge difference here is that by this point they have both started to fall in love as they reconnect to past memories. He had no right to, but his kiss came from a good place and through the author's eyes was most likely seen as consensual and romantic for them both, like a fairy tale kiss. They had just shared a dance and a life or death situation.
Demande, on the other hand, wanted to violate Usagi. He was taking pleasure in forcing himself on her and taking what he wanted. He undressed her while she was unconscious, tortured her friends, had been stalking her (or a version of her) and made it clear her choice didn't matter in both anime and manga.

“ Naru’s and Nephrite’s and Zoisite and Kunzite’s age gaps not being used as a reason they shouldn’t be together when it’s always used as a reason why Usagi and Mamoru shouldn’t be together”

I don't think most people would say that Usagi and Mamoru shouldn't be together, but that the age difference is a bit much in the anime. But in the anime, Mamo also keeps her at arms' length. This is also 1990s Japan and not 2020s America. It's also of note that if the ages were switched, most people wouldn't bat an eye or they would be all *wink-wink-nudge-nudge* "way to go, Mamo, for getting an older woman!"
Manga Mamo is like 16-17 and Usagi is 13-14. For me, 13 and 16 seem more egregious than 14 and 17. Anime Mamo was stupidly aged up to 18. That one extra year makes a huge difference in people's minds and I agree. There is a world of difference between 13 and 18.
The anime never really gets inappropriate with it, at least.
With Naru and Nephrite, only shippers really cling to that as being okay. He is canonically 19 in the manga but no age is ever given in the anime. To me he seems like he's older, maybe 25 (I always thought he was like 30+ back then because of that voice and demeanor.)
The real issue with this relationship isn't even the age, it's that it really isn't even a relationship. He used her and manipulated a child by making her fall in love. Yes, he changed at the end, but I do not think he was romantically invested, he just realized the error of his ways and wanted to protect her. She was still naively clinging to the idea a grown man loved her and didn't care she was being used. It's still tragic and god writing, but I don't see it as comparable to Usagi and Mamo at all.


“Queen Beryl brainwashing and seducing Mamoru isn’t seen or treated as creepy and violating as Demande and Usagi”
It is creepy and violating, but on a different level. As far as we see no physical assault happened from Beryl...but she violated him in even deeper ways. She had him kill for her (manga) and used him like a puppert to attack people he cared about. Remember, this is being done to a young man between 16-18 with past trauma, memory issues and depression.
Demande's is more in your face shocking since he is touching and kissing Usagi, but on a psychological level, what Beryl did to Mamo and what Wiseman does to Chibi Usa is far darker.


“Rei or Seiya teases Usagi because they like her romantically, but Mamoru is a only a bully and wants to make Usagi’s life miserable”

Mamoru is a bit of a bully, but not really in a way that seriously hurts Usagi. It just makes her mad. She's also (even if unknowingly) instigating it by throwing trash around and acting a bit rude herself. His teasing later is from a good place.
Rei just enjoys being mean in classic. She not only bullies Usagi, she bullies Ami and would probably have bullied Makoto if she thought she could. We see Rei treat most everyone this way and she has a bad attitude problem and a temper she needs to keep in check, which she eventually does. I think she still very much cares for Usagi, and at least with her, the teasing is on more equal terms.
With Seiya...he/she is just a creeper most of the time. Maybe not intentionally, but their narcissistic attitude and stalker ways comes off as much worse than Mamo ever did for me, even if the age difference doesn't exist here.
I don't think Seiya is a bad person, but they don't really understand boundaries and even if they had good intentions they were also thoughtless and made everything about them.
All of this was well said. The pacing of the manga and Crystal/Eternal can as rushed. It's like a freight train with no brakes. On the other hand, the 90s anime's pacing can be compared to a tortoise. The action series, PGSM is perhaps a solid middle ground pacing-wise. Not too fast, not too slow.
I agree with all your thoughts.
 

Mystical Moonbow

Lumen Cinererum
Nov 10, 2016
309
198
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In Santa’s Sleigh
#12
“Rei or Seiya teases Usagi because they like her romantically, but Mamoru is a only a bully and wants to make Usagi’s life miserable”

Mamoru is a bit of a bully, but not really in a way that seriously hurts Usagi. It just makes her mad. She's also (even if unknowingly) instigating it by throwing trash around and acting a bit rude herself. His teasing later is from a good place.
Rei just enjoys being mean in classic. She not only bullies Usagi, she bullies Ami and would probably have bullied Makoto if she thought she could. We see Rei treat most everyone this way and she has a bad attitude problem and a temper she needs to keep in check, which she eventually does. I think she still very much cares for Usagi, and at least with her, the teasing is on more equal terms.
With Seiya...he/she is just a creeper most of the time. Maybe not intentionally, but their narcissistic attitude and stalker ways comes off as much worse than Mamo ever did for me, even if the age difference doesn't exist here.
I don't think Seiya is a bad person, but they don't really understand boundaries and even if they had good intentions they were also thoughtless and made everything about them.
That’s the thing though. Most SeiUsa or some ReiUsa Reisagi say the teasing and bickering it’s okay but it’s not when Mamoru does it,yet, there are parallels (at least for SeiUsa) to MamoUsa in the teasing-bickering stage. I know some use the age thing as to why it’s okay with Seiya and Rei, but let’s be real, most do not mature at the age 17 or just because they entered their first year of college. It’s expected, but most of the time, not a reality with only some exceptions. Not to mention Mamoru was shown to have some childish and immature characteristic to him (riding kiddie choo-choo trains, teasing Usagi, being inexperienced in relationships which led him to not handle things maturely at first), so he’s not that much more mature Usagi, especially when they both had a lack of experience in relationships
 
#13
90s Seiya's fans. For me this is beyond terrible to obliterate Tuxedo Mask kissing the girl he knows that she loves him back albeit unconscious and it is destiny drawing them to each other and at the same time being so supportive over emotional abuser that knows very well the girl doesn't love them and use her vulnerability to force their feelings on her emotionally.
Hear hear!
 

Tsundereshipper

Aurorae Lunares
Jun 17, 2019
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#14
“People getting on Prince Demande for kissing or trying to steal a kiss from Usagi when Tuxedo Mask did the same back in season one”
It’s more the exact opposite from what I witnessed in the fandom, people endlessly giving Mamoru grief for his one momentary lapse in judgement while going all crickets over Demande.

They like to use the excuse that since he’s a villain it’s expected he would do evil things and such acts are clearly condemned and never romanticized, whereas Mamoru is one of the good guys , and thus is meant to be a role model and set an example for the audience, plus the fact that he never once gets scolded/condemned for his actions (ignoring the fact that Luna had to literally chase him off in the Manga/Crystal)


Zoisite and Kunzite’s age gaps
They only have an age gap in the manga though, where they’re likely not even a thing in the first place. Their ages in the 90’s anime is unknown.

Manga/Materials Collection ages don’t automatically translate over to the 90’s anime or else Mamoru would still be the 16-17 year old high schooler he’s supposed to be and Chibi-Usa would be over 900. :P

Anyways some other double standards I thought of:
  • Mamoru is a huge creep for kissing Usagi without her consent but when Haruka, Usagi and Chibi-Usa all do this in the manga it’s a-ok!
  • Rei and Chibi-Usa are “bitches” and are always in the wrong even during the times Usagi starts the fights and doesn’t behave like such an angel herself.
  • It’s okay for Usagi to look at other people but Mamoru had better stay faithful!
  • Mamoru and Nephrite are pedo groomers but when Actual Predator 90’s Grandpa Hino preys on minors his granddaughter’s age it’s just “all in good fun.”
seen manga usagi like creepy or bad but saying 90s usagi is better when she is insecure and she implied pedo when she constantly be jealous of chibi usa or said bad things
Plus 90’s anime Usagi being considered the purest and goodest of all people when compared to her manga counterpart when she’s low-key homophobic and racist (see her dealings with the BMC.)

Manga Usagi might not be perfect but at least she’s not going around making homophobic comments and exiling people based on their race, for all her “loving forgiveness” 90’s Usagi is actually kinda a bigot.
People who accuse Crystal of being shallow and rushed yet praise the manga for the same story.
But Crystal was largely this in it’s first two seasons largely because of it’s all unneeded additions, changes and cuts.
 

Masquerade

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Nov 22, 2016
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#16
Back in 2014-5, there were some feminist females who called themselves Sailor Moon fans, but thrashed Usagi because she was "overly dependant on men" and "boy-crazy."
However, that time period was the height of wokeness on the Internet and I haven't seen such comments from so-called "fans" anymore.
My take on that is that Usagi often needs Mamoru's emotional support in battle because she's one of the most humane superheroes out there. She's a young girl with her own fragilities who needs help from those she loves (her fellow soldiers and Tuxedo Mask), and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like all female characters in the series are the same regarding this.
 

yaya_ikuto

Lumen Cinererum
Jan 16, 2018
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#17
i remember with masquerade post xD
i saw some of that so called feminist saying crystal was bad because usagi depends on mamoru and saying somethings bad too about the opening it had
but saying 90s usagi was good because is more about friendship than love, and it have a opening about love of the protagonists than some people said its not because mamoru save her with roses XD and the 90s girls where boy crazy
is true what you said besides that ideology at first said man and woman are equal in law but with the difference capacity they have in biology
that apply good in the manga usagi and mamoru become equal in the dream arc i know he still dosent do much but the golden crystal is the equal to the silver crystal

the other thing is looking bad usagi in the manga because of her having a more deep relationship with mamoru that they have sex or the manga give that implication
while they think 90s usagi should go ahead and do it XD and we know 90s usagi is immature etc

i remember too the fans said the girls in the manga dosent have a friendship
but they said the 90s anime is more about friendship or said they are great friends
when in the manga when usagi know she is the princess they try to support her in any matter and help her with her hair
while in the 90s anime they slap her, i know im not talking about the writers but the moment was bad even later they didn't support her much they keep saying somethings very bad to each other mostly rei, luna and chibiusa
and so many times saying mamoru should leave her or in some time it will happen and usagi is chibi usa mother and telling her she wasn't going to get marry or something more trash than that or not support her when mamoru leave her saying mamoru had his reasons hell, they didn't try to investigate or something and even looking at usagi cry hell
 

Tsundereshipper

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#18
i remember with masquerade post xD
i saw some of that so called feminist saying crystal was bad because usagi depends on mamoru and saying somethings bad too about the opening it had
but saying 90s usagi was good because is more about friendship than love, and it have a opening about love of the protagonists than some people said its not because mamoru save her with roses XD and the 90s girls where boy crazy
is true what you said besides that ideology at first said man and woman are equal in law but with the difference capacity they have in biology
that apply good in the manga usagi and mamoru become equal in the dream arc i know he still dosent do much but the golden crystal is the equal to the silver crystal

the other thing is looking bad usagi in the manga because of her having a more deep relationship with mamoru that they have sex or the manga give that implication
while they think 90s usagi should go ahead and do it XD and we know 90s usagi is immature etc

i remember too the fans said the girls in the manga dosent have a friendship
but they said the 90s anime is more about friendship or said they are great friends
when in the manga when usagi know she is the princess they try to support her in any matter and help her with her hair
while in the 90s anime they slap her, i know im not talking about the writers but the moment was bad even later they didn't support her much they keep saying somethings very bad to each other mostly rei, luna and chibiusa
and so many times saying mamoru should leave her or in some time it will happen and usagi is chibi usa mother and telling her she wasn't going to get marry or something more trash than that or not support her when mamoru leave her saying mamoru had his reasons hell, they didn't try to investigate or something and even looking at usagi cry hell
That reminds me of another double standard, Manga/Crystal Usagi being obsessed with Mamoru makes her weak and pathetic but 90’s anime Haruka and Michiru ultimately caring for nothing else but each other (“a world without Haruka isn’t one worth saving”) makes them strong, girlboss characters! :roll:
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#19
“People getting on Prince Demande for kissing or trying to steal a kiss from Usagi when Tuxedo Mask did the same back in season one”
That’s not a double standard. Obviously its not a good look for Tux to be kissing a drunk girl when he’s sober but Usagi would have kissed him sober. Demande was trying to force himself on Usagi. They’re not equitable. It’s understandable why someone would excuse one and condone Demande as a rapist.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#20
That reminds me of another double standard, Manga/Crystal Usagi being obsessed with Mamoru makes her weak and pathetic but 90’s anime Haruka and Michiru ultimately caring for nothing else but each other (“a world without Haruka isn’t one worth saving”) makes them strong, girlboss characters! :roll:
Also this reminds fans who were upset that the inners got shaft in crystal and the manga.Why also ignoring That Mamorou, and sailor Pluto also got shaft in 90s anime .I am not saying both could been better.