What are some double standards or hypocrisy in the fandom and in the show?

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Tsundereshipper

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When a ship’s breadcrumbs don’t count because “it’s not enough for a canon pairing”, but it suddenly counts as evidence for another pairing (usually non-canon) and is stated as them having an attraction for each other as a fact.
May I ask the two ships in question you’re referring to by this post? :P
 

Rika-Chicchi

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When a ship’s breadcrumbs don’t count because “it’s not enough for a canon pairing”, but it suddenly counts as evidence for another pairing (usually non-canon) and is stated as them having an attraction for each other as a fact.
That's not really double standards because there's actually just one single, consistent standard here: whether the pairing in question is one's favorite. :P
 

Mystical Moonbow

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May I ask the two ships in question you’re referring to by this post? :P
Pretty much any non-canon ship versus any canon ship, though most of the ones I see are against either Usagi and Mamoru (90’s) or sometimes Haruka and Michiru (mostly their Crystal versions).

Though I will acknowledge that this type of hypocrisy pretty much exists in any fandom with ships, I thought it was worth pointing out especially those versions of the relationships are usually the ones most in the fandom are very critical compared to their other versions.

I remember a Reddit user telling another one that Makoto noticing something between Mamoru and Usagi in the beginning of the manga or Crystal with Usagi blushing and denying it was evidence but when Yumemi in the painting episode basically noticed the same thing with Usagi also blushing and denying it. So it not only happens between different ships, but also between different versions of the same one as well.
 
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Tsundereshipper

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Pretty much any non-canon ship versus any canon ship, though most of the ones I see are against either Usagi and Mamoru
I mean it’s a fact that Usagi showcased attraction to other people other than Mamoru in all versions (besides maybe PGSM) and Mamoru had his own fair of suitors as well, if people prefer to ship either of them with their other options besides each other that’s their right and is just a preference in the end. (Especially considering how poorly the 90’s anime did the UsaMamo relationship to begin with)

Unless these are outright crack ships like say shipping 90’s anime Usagi with Yaten (or basically any Senshi whom she’s never expressed romantic interest in which is all of them in the 90’s anime besides Rei, Seiya and Haruka for a brief period of time when she first met her and thought she was a man) or Mamoru with Michiru you can’t definitively say UsaMamo is automatically more “canon.”

Technically any character who expresses a romantic attraction towards another character on-screen whether one-sided or mutual is just as canon as any other, the actual term you’re looking for here is end-game. As in which of these canonically suggested relationships ends up being together at the end. 90’s anime SeiUsa or UsaRei isn’t any less canon just because Usagi’s end game is ultimately Mamoru, they’re all attractions that were shown to exist within the actual canon work itself and therefore have just as much validity and claim to the title of “canon” even if they weren’t actually endgame. (I do agree though that it’s dumb af if anyone tries to make the argument that UsaMamo somehow isn’t canon just because of the canonical existence of these alternative pairings. They are and always will be canon and end-game in all iterations due to the very nature of how this franchise is set up, that being said I won’t lie and say I wouldn’t mind a version that makes an unexpected swerve from the expected and pairs up Usagi with a different character at the end.)

In the 90’s anime alone we have…

Canon through one-sided feelings from either party’s side:

Usagi

Motoki (pre-getting together with Mamoru)
Umino (again pre-UsaMamo)
Demande

Mamoru

En
Fish-Eye
Fiore (This one’s tricky to categorize as he exists in the same grey zone Rei did where it wasn’t reciprocated but didn’t seem outright rejected either)
Mimette (unsure if I should count Esmeraude for this too since she did seem to be flirting with him but it could’ve been an objective commentary concerning his looks as well)
Saori
Chibi-Usa (As much as we might all hate it, yes unfortunately it’s still technically canon from Chibs side)

Canon through reciprocation:

Usagi

Rei
Ail
Seiya

Mamoru:

Both Rei and Fiore… kinda.

Then on the Manga/Crystal side we have…

One sided:

Usagi

Seiya
Demande

Mamoru

Setsuna
Beryl
Chibi-Usa (unfortunately even more overt here but thankfully still one-sided)
Nehellenia, maybe/possibly??? (That one comment she makes as she’s disintegrating)

Mutual:

Usagi

Haruka
Technically her entire Senshi team since they’re low-key treated as her entire harem in the manga, especially if you take the entire ending into account. (Though other than Haruka the only other two of her Senshi that Manga Usagi displays attraction to are Rei and Minako)

(lmao Mamoru doesn’t have anyone in the manga who he expresses a mutual interest towards besides Usagi)

Even PGSM, though much more trimmed down for potential alternative suitors on both Usagi and Mamoru’s side still has Ami for Usagi (The actress for Ami was outright told to play her like she’s “a girl in love” towards Usagi so yes, Ami/Usagi is technically canon to the PGSM-verse though only one-sided from Ami’s side) and Hina and Beryl for Mamoru. (possibly PGSM Zoisite too??? He seemed awfully attached to his “Master” compared to all the other Shittenou, hell Kunzite’s whole reaction to Endymion’s supposed “betrayal” was like that of a spurned lover so they could both be considered viable options though I wouldn’t consider either outright canon)


or sometimes Haruka and Michiru (mostly their Crystal versions).
I mean Manga/Crystal Haruka is canonically romantically interested in Usagi that’s a fact, and on top of her getting absolutely no development, build-up and little screentime towards her relationship with Michiru you also get the strong vibe that she treats Michiru as mearly a consolation prize for the actual person she wants to be with which is her “Princess.” Between that and the blatant cheating she does on Michiru it should come as no surprise that fans aren’t too keen on Manga HaruMichi’s relationship, they’re written even worse than 90’s anime UsaMamo is. That being said, that again still doesn’t make them not canon or endgame. Word of God Naoko herself confirmed many years ago that Haruka and Michiru are an official couple, they’re actually heavily implied to be married in the Manga/Crystal and are outright raising Hotaru together as her parents. Anyone attempting to deny their clearly spelled out relationship at this point is silly and a big possibility they themselves are just homophobic.

But just because something is canon and/or endgame doesn’t preclude it from being badly written, and I would argue both Manga/Crystal HaruMichi and 90’s anime UsaMamo (especially post Makai Tree) are just that, which is why people would prefer to ship them with any given alternatives.
 
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Mystical Moonbow

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I mean it’s a fact that Usagi showcased attraction to other people other than Mamoru in all versions (besides maybe PGSM) and Mamoru had his own fair of suitors as well, if people prefer to ship either of them with their options besides each other that’s their right and is just a preference in the end. (Especially considering how poorly the 90’s anime did the UsaMamo relationship to begin with)

Unless these are outright crack ships like say shipping 90’s anime Usagi with Yaten (or basically any Senshi whom she’s never expressed romantic interest in which is all of them in the 90’s anime besides Rei, Seiya and Haruka for a brief period) or Mamoru with Michiru you can’t definitively say UsaMamo is automatically more “canon.”

Technically any character who expresses a romantic attraction towards another character on-screen whether one-sided or mutual is just as canon as any other, the actual term you’re looking for here is end-game. As in which of these canonically suggested relationships ends up being together at the end. 90’s anime SeiUsa or UsaRei isn’t any less canon just because Usagi’s end game is ultimately Mamoru, they’re all attractions that were shown to exist within the actual canon work itself and therefore have just as much validity and claim to the title of “canon” even if they weren’t actually endgame. (I do agree though that it’s dumb af if anyone tries to make the argument that UsaMamo somehow isn’t canon just because of the canonical existence of these alternative pairings. They are and always will be canon and end-game in all iteration due to the very nature of how this franchise is set up, that being said I won’t lie and say I wouldn’t mind a version that makes an unexpected swerve from the expected and pairs up Usagi with a different character at the end.)

In the 90’s anime alone we have…

Canon through one-sided feelings from either party’s side:

Usagi

Motoki (pre-getting together with Mamoru)
Umino (again pre-UsaMamo)
Demande

Mamoru

En
Fish-Eye
Fiore (This one’s tricky to categorize as he exists in the same grey zone Rei did where it wasn’t reciprocated but didn’t seem outright rejected either)
Mimette (unsure if I should count Esmeraude for this too since she did seem to be flirting with him but it could’ve been an objective commentary concerning his looks as well)
Saori
Chibi-Usa (As much as we might all hate it, yes unfortunately it’s still technically canon from Chibs side)

Canon through reciprocation:

Usagi

Rei
Ail
Seiya

Mamoru:

Both Rei and Fiore… kinda.

Then on the Manga/Crystal side we have…

One sided:

Usagi

Seiya
Demande

Mamoru

Setsuna
Beryl
Chibi-Usa (unfortunately even more overt here but thankfully still one-sided)
Nehellenia, maybe/possibly??? (That one comment she makes as she’s disintegrating)

Mutual:

Usagi

Haruka
Technically her entire Senshi team since they’re low-key treated as her entire harem in the manga, especially if you take the entire ending into account. (Though other than Haruka the only other two of her Senshi that Manga Usagi displays attraction to are Rei and Minako)

(lmao Mamoru doesn’t have anyone in the manga who he expresses a mutual interest towards besides Usagi)

Even PGSM, though much more trimmed down for potential alternative suitors on both Usagi and Mamoru’s side still has Ami for Usagi (The actress for Ami was outright told to play her like she’s “a girl in love” towards Usagi so yes, Ami/Usagi is technically canon to the PGSM-verse though only one-sided from Ami’s side) and Hina and Beryl (possibly PGSM Zoisite too??? He seemed awfully attached to his “Master” compared to all the other Shittenou, hell Kunzite’s whole reaction to Endymion’s supposed “betrayal” was like that of a spurned lover so they could both be considered viable options though I wouldn’t consider either outright canon)



I mean Manga/Crystal Haruka is canonically romantically interested in Usagi that’s a fact, and on top of her getting absolutely no development, build-up and little screentime towards her relationship with Michiru you also get the strong vibe that she treats Michiru as mearly a consolation prize for the actual person she wants to be with which is her “Princess.” Between that and the blatant cheating she does on Michiru it should come as no surprise that fans aren’t too keen on Manga HaruMichi’s relationship, they’re written even worse than 90’s anime UsaMamo is. That being said, that again still doesn’t make them not canon or endgame. Word of God Naoko herself confirmed many years ago that Haruka and Michiru are an official couple, they’re actually heavily implied to be married in the Manga/Crystal and are outright raising Hotaru together as her parents. Anyone attempting to deny their clearly spelled out relationship at this point is silly and a big possibility they themselves are just homophobic.

But just because something is canon and/or endgame doesn’t preclude it from being badly written, and I would argue both Manga/Crystal HaruMichi and 90’s anime UsaMamo (especially post Makai Tree) are just that, which is why people would prefer to ship them with any given alternatives.
Just because one perceives something is badly written doesn’t negate the breadcrumbs that people choose to dismiss for one ship but then use the same ones to prove another one. Regardless, the breadcrumbs are there and many just either love to downplay it but use the same evidence for to support their ship preferences. By the way, I’m not saying people can’t prefer other ships, but I’m also allowed to point out their hypocrisy.

My point with the whole “canon” thing is that people often present their headcanons of ships as actual facts based on evidence that sometimes they themselves admit are similar to the ones that people have pointed out for canon ones, yet they like to completely disregard that to discredit the ship.

I could ship Mamoru and Michiru and use their interactions as evidence of their attraction with the dance scene in the 90’s version or the fact that Usagi was jealous of them in the Crystal/manga version and etc.,and say that’s canon and that it’s a fact that they are secretly attracted to each other, but deny that Usagi’s and Mamoru’s season 1 dance had no hints of attraction between the two and deny Usagi’s jealousy of Rei and Mamoru in season 1.

I could say Haruka’s and Usagi’s moments in Crystal proves they were intimate in some of their moments but downplay Haruka and Michiru holding each other in the window scene. Again , people don’t have to like the canon ships, but they also don’t have to be hypocritical about it either.

At the end of the day, I’m just trying to point that out for due to staying in the thread’s topic, so the whole canon- fanon- headcanon thing was used emphasize my original point.
 
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Tsundereshipper

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Just because one perceives something is badly written doesn’t negate the breadcrumbs that people choose to dismiss for one ship but then use the same ones to prove another one. Regardless, the breadcrumbs are there and many just either love to downplay it but use the same evidence for to support their ship preferences. By the way, I’m not saying people can’t prefer other ships, but I’m also allowed to point out their hypocrisy.

My point with the whole “canon” thing is that people often present their headcanons of ships as actual facts based on evidence that sometimes they themselves admit are similar to the ones that people have pointed out for canon ones, yet they like to completely disregard that to discredit the ship.
But when was this ever done for the Sailor Moon fandom in particular? This is definitely a thing in other franchises, mainly shonen fandoms where the canon endgame is more ambiguous and shipping is treated like a bigger deal but I’ve never seen this done with either of the two firmly established canon/endgame ships in Sailor Moon, could you perhaps provide an example where fans are outright denying the canonicity of either UsaMamo or HaruMichi?

If this does in fact exist then hell yeah it’s a double standard alright! A rather false one too considering both UsaMamo and HaruMichi are straight up endgame in all versions that currently exist, like this isn’t even an opinion that’s just a straight-up fact!


I could ship Mamoru and Michiru and use their interactions as evidence of their attraction with the dance scene in the 90’s version or the fact that Usagi was jealous of them in the Crystal/manga version and etc.,and say that’s canon and that it’s a fact that they are secretly attracted to each other even though guys there has been no confirmation. I could even use this for Rei and Mamoru, but we all know the answer to that.
The difference is that Rei in the 90’s anime actually showed attraction to Mamoru and he reciprocated it at least on some level by going along with her dates. The Mamoru/Michiru thing only exists in the Manga/Crystal (Friends can’t dance together now? Guess that makes that MakoAmi dance in SuperS unambiguously romantic then. :P) and is only based on Usagi’s mistaken assumptions and insecurities, there is no any actual interest coming from either Michiru or Mamoru’s end. (Especially not Michiru, considering Naoko’s Michiru is canonically a lesbian) Therefore Mamoru/Michiru in either version is a non-canon fan shipping and cannot be compared to 90’s anime Mamoru/Rei.
 

Mystical Moonbow

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But when was this ever done for the Sailor Moon fandom in particular? This is definitely a thing in other franchises, mainly shonen fandoms where the canon endgame is more ambiguous and shipping is treated like a bigger deal but I’ve never seen this done with either of the two firmly established canon/endgame ships in Sailor Moon, could you perhaps provide an example where fans are outright denying the canonicity of either UsaMamo or HaruMichi?

If this does in fact exist then hell yeah it’s a double standard alright! A rather false one too considering both UsaMamo and HaruMichi are straight up endgame in all versions that currently exist, like this isn’t even an opinion that’s just a straight-up fact!



The difference is that Rei in the 90’s anime actually showed attraction to Mamoru and he reciprocated it at least on some level by going along with her dates. The Mamoru/Michiru thing only exists in the Manga/Crystal (Friends can’t dance together now? Guess that makes that MakoAmi dance in SuperS unambiguously romantic then. :P) and is only based on Usagi’s mistaken assumptions and insecurities, there is no any actual interest coming from either Michiru or Mamoru’s end. (Especially not Michiru, considering Naoko’s Michiru is canonically a lesbian) Therefore Mamoru/Michiru in either version is a non-canon fan shipping and cannot be compared to 90’s anime Mamoru/Rei.
I think it’s better explained if I said that they like to downplay and deny the breadcrumbs that strengthens their canon status while using either the same or similar breadcrumbs to support how “canon” their ship is.



For your last quote, I was editing to make it sound clearer. I wasn’t trying to compare Mamoru/Michiru relationship to Mamoru/Rei’s. I was trying to use Usagi’s jealousy for my point. Some will easily say Usagi was clearly jealous of Mamoru and Michiru but many like to deny her jealousy of Mamoru and Rei in season 1 despite her also getting jealous in the Super S season. Some would also say that Usagi was jealous about Rei being with someone else (Mamoru in this case), but deny Usagi’s jealousy about Mamoru being with someone else (Rei in this case) despite Usagi trying to hook her up with Yuichiro while also disapproving Mamoru/Rei.

The same breadcrumb doesn’t count where others do count it (the hypocrisy). As I’ve said before, perceiving something as badly written doesn’t negate the breadcrumb.

Edit: But as for the dance part, that was part of the point where with the whole canon thing. People will use one thing as evidence for one ship and discredit it for another. That is the point that I’m trying to make. Some that may ship AmiMako (MakoAmi ?) might say that dance between them might have sparked some attraction, but they could say that Usagi and Mamoru didn’t have any attraction in there’s. This one is just an example though since I haven’t seen anyone do this.
 
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Rika-Chicchi

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That's not really double standards because there's actually just one single, consistent standard here: whether the pairing in question is one's favorite. :P
But it is hypocritical
Of course there're double standards - I was only joking. :wink: Talking about hypocrisy, that's actually a pretty common political behavior by nature for supporting "my"/"our" value/side against "their" value/side, especially in the "post-truth" era these days. lol
 

Mystical Moonbow

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Of course there're double standards - I was only joking. :wink: Talking about hypocrisy, that's actually a pretty common political behavior by nature for supporting "my"/"our" value/side against "their" value/side, especially in the "post-truth" era these days. lol
Yeah, it pretty much exists in many fandoms, especially the ones that have ship wars involved. I just thought it was important to point out for the Sailor Moon fandom since breadcrumbs are usually downplayed or heavily denied for ships like Usagi/Mamoru and Haruka/Michiru.
 

Clow

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I think “hypocrisy” is a very harsh word, so I will use the word misunderstanding, a misunderstanding from my part.

If my line of thought is correct, I remember that many fans in the early-00s wanted a faithful adaptation of the manga.

I specifically remember that people were fascinated with Rei in the manga because her personality is very different from her personality in the 90’s anime. I also remember fans being furious with the breakup arc in R because Usagi and Mamoru are meant to be soulmates, and don’t even get me started with the 90’s adaptation of Dream and Stars.

Then we got Crystal…

and I aware that Crystal has its problems, but Crystal is the most faithful adaptation of the manga there is,
and, well, my impression is that it’s generally disliked and the 90’s anime is by all means the superior version. :ninja:
 

Rika-Chicchi

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Yeah, it pretty much exists in many fandoms, especially the ones that have ship wars involved. I just thought it was important to point out for the Sailor Moon fandom since breadcrumbs are usually downplayed or heavily denied for ships like Usagi/Mamoru and Haruka/Michiru.
They do that for their own (political) agenda of disapproving/discrediting those canon ships, whether they honestly know those're canon or not. lol
 

Tsundereshipper

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Then we got Crystal…

and I aware that Crystal has its problems, but Crystal is the most faithful adaptation of the manga there is,
and, well, my impression is that it’s generally disliked and the 90’s anime is by all means the superior version
It was faithful but still not faithful enough, the changes they made for both Dark Kingdom and Black Moon were generally for the worse and the laughably bad, cheap animation as well as the non-expressiveness in faces and deletion of pretty much all humor from the manga was also a problem. Another big downgrade was the deletion of certain scenes/panels, now usually this wouldn’t be such a big deal if this were any other manga adaptation but the Sailor Moon manga is so short and so lacking in screen-time for a majority of it’s cast to begin with that every little bit counts, and cutting away any panel, no matter how small, directly negatively affects the characterization.

The fact that there’s still no word on whether they’ll animate the short stories or Sailor V also hurts it as this is where the majority of the girls characterization comes from besides the Dream arc.
 
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I think “hypocrisy” is a very harsh word, so I will use the word misunderstanding, a misunderstanding from my part.

If my line of thought is correct, I remember that many fans in the early-00s wanted a faithful adaptation of the manga.

I specifically remember that people were fascinated with Rei in the manga because her personality is very different from her personality in the 90’s anime. I also remember fans being furious with the breakup arc in R because Usagi and Mamoru are meant to be soulmates, and don’t even get me started with the 90’s adaptation of Dream and Stars.

Then we got Crystal…

and I aware that Crystal has its problems, but Crystal is the most faithful adaptation of the manga there is,
and, well, my impression is that it’s generally disliked and the 90’s anime is by all means the superior version. :ninja:
You're back!
 

Clow

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I was one of those...
As was I.

My (personal) experience: despite the flaws and inconsistencies, Crystal grew on me and I like it a lot and I will certainly watch the Cosmos film, provided that the cats resurrect like everybody else (being a cat lover, that’s the only detail of the manga I have always intensely disliked; if the cats don’t come back, I am not watching the film).

:luna::artemis::diana:
 
As was I.

My (personal) experience: despite the flaws and inconsistencies, Crystal grew on me and I like it a lot and I will certainly watch the Cosmos film, provided that the cats resurrect like everybody else (being a cat lover, that’s the only detail of the manga I have always intensely disliked; if the cats don’t come back, I am not watching the film).

:luna::artemis::diana:
The cats are definitely the most important characters in the franchise, I agree that they should be resurrected along with everyone else.
 

Clow

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Yeah, I have always loved the Stars manga arc, but, for me, personally, not having the cats resurrect with everybody else was a grave mistake.

If the film doesn’t correct the manga, I am seriously not watching the film.

I also recently lost my beloved cat to cancer and I watching the film may be difficult.
 
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Yeah, I have always loved the Stars manga arc, but, for me, personally, not having the cats resurrect with everybody else was a grave mistake.

If the film doesn’t correct the manga, I am seriously not watching the film.

I also recently lost my beloved cat to cancer and I watching the film may be difficult.
I think it's fair to say we do not know if the others were ressurected or not.We just don't see it because we're focusing on Usagi and seeing her wedding with her brides maids.
 
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