What do you think the relation is between the Senshi and their eponymous gods?

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Jan 4, 2023
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#1
Artemis in Codename Sailor V IIRC said that Sailor Venus is supposed to be the goddess of love, which she usually calls herself as well. Other times it seems like they are a reincarnation of them, or their children (then again, being a child of Jupiter is not difficult, seventy percent of Greek people are his kids:fap::quagmire:). Pluto has said a couple of times that she calls for Chronos, or the god of time in Greek mythology. They seem to exist in the SM universe, but their relationship to the Senshi is vague. Then again, I imagine a lot of women who would volunteer to be part of the cult around :haruka:.
 
Jun 8, 2023
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#2
Artemis in Codename Sailor V IIRC said that Sailor Venus is supposed to be the goddess of love, which she usually calls herself as well. Other times it seems like they are a reincarnation of them, or their children (then again, being a child of Jupiter is not difficult, seventy percent of Greek people are his kids:fap::quagmire:). Pluto has said a couple of times that she calls for Chronos, or the god of time in Greek mythology. They seem to exist in the SM universe, but their relationship to the Senshi is vague. Then again, I imagine a lot of women who would volunteer to be part of the cult around :haruka:.
I raised a similar point in the potpourri thread… It's not clear to me in this universe...are these gods actual beings? Are they metaphors?
Are there gods of the Sailor Moon world? How does Cronus fit? Is he an actual character or person from the past...or a concept? Do other gods like Oceanus exist? Selene does not, but Usagi and the Queen do. It's hard to distinguish as other Greek gods, or at least their namesake and reference, contemporary to Cronus, readily exist in the Sailor Moon universe...like Mnemosyne and Tethys (Thetis).
The Sailor Moon Potpourri Thread
 
Jan 4, 2023
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#3
I raised a similar point in the potpourri thread… It's not clear to me in this universe...are these gods actual beings? Are they metaphors?
Are there gods of the Sailor Moon world? How does Cronus fit? Is he an actual character or person from the past...or a concept? Do other gods like Oceanus exist? Selene does not, but Usagi and the Queen do. It's hard to distinguish as other Greek gods, or at least their namesake and reference, contemporary to Cronus, readily exist in the Sailor Moon universe...like Mnemosyne and Tethys (Thetis).
The Sailor Moon Potpourri Thread
Well, in ancient belief about the Greco-Roman gods, they were not necessarily in a particular form or body. Zeus in the form of a swan would remind people of that. They could be any form. In some ways they were the humanization of forces and aspects of life in those days, given a consciousness, and to be respected for the power they demonstrated periodically such as when earthquakes struck in the Bronze Age Collapse around 3100 years ago or the common ocean storms, the bolts of lightning of Jupiter, the love and being sexy that Venus could offer or take away, the wisdom and commerce of Mercury, etc. It could be random, but also coincide with fortune for particular individuals and the righteous or villainous acts they did but others could not prove either way or had suspicions and left it up to observing natural forces to see if the gods, with their knowledge, knew things that humans did not know and would express it by their natural forces. Humans like to think of meaning in things even when there might not be. Randomness means that things are more likely to be disordered than ordered, but complete disorder is essentially impossible.

Have you ever seen HBO´s Rome? In one episode two Roman soldiers wash up on a Greek beach and manage to take an important enemy of Julius Caesar prisoner and return to Caesar. Even though in the process they had disobeyed the wishes of Caesar, Caesar was not going to punish two people who had such good fortune given that the gods knew something Caesar didn´t and seemed to want this to happen. That wasn´t a real story but the thinking is real, at least those with significantly religious beliefs, and Caesar definitely seems to believe in destiny in history.

If one wished, they could create a religion out of the fundamental forces of the universe like gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces, and electromagnetism forces. That would be a little strange but some people do kinds of religious interpretation from such phenomena, like pantheists or people who attribute something divine to the Big Bang. Pythagoras and his followers in Southern Italy thought that mathematics and geometry was a divine activity to find out what the gods meant the universe to have and unlock its perfection.

A monotheistic god is usually given the attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and omniscience, eternal existence in both directions that had no before or after, and is an absolute sovereign. Polytheistic ones don´t tend to, but they usually have aspects of immense power, eternal existence at least from a starting point or can only be killed by other divine forces such as Ragnorök, some degree of telepathy, the control of natural forces in violation of the laws of conservation of energy and matter (or at least it would explain why Usagi eats so much when she can easily unleash forces equal to megatonnes of TNT in seconds), and similar, and that does reflect the traits of the Senshi. Not immortal in the same way but abiding by reincarnation, they do exist eternally, they are obviously powerful, they do have telepathy although not omniscience (or else Usagi´s grades would be much better), and quite a lot of other traits.

Sailor Venus does behave a lot like the original one, especially Aphrodite Areia, just as capable of beating you down to a pulp and getting very horny very quickly, and that form of her was adored by the Spartans unsurprisingly.
 

Thexall

Luna Crescens
Oct 16, 2020
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#5
I don't think that the roman gods exist in the Sailor Moon-Universe as this series is clearly pushing the idea of girlpower and matriarchy, where the roles are reversed and men are just here to cheer for the senshi or be the bad guys that get destined to die. And the Roman gods are simply an import from Greece, where Zeus (Jupiter) is the undisputed father of the gods.
 

MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
5,719
1,129
1,665
#6
I raised a similar point in the potpourri thread… It's not clear to me in this universe...are these gods actual beings? Are they metaphors?
Are there gods of the Sailor Moon world? How does Cronus fit? Is he an actual character or person from the past...or a concept? Do other gods like Oceanus exist? Selene does not, but Usagi and the Queen do. It's hard to distinguish as other Greek gods, or at least their namesake and reference, contemporary to Cronus, readily exist in the Sailor Moon universe...like Mnemosyne and Tethys (Thetis).
The Sailor Moon Potpourri Thread
Selene does exist. Queen Serenity explicitly referred to herself as "The Incarnation of the Moon Goddess Selene."
 
Jan 4, 2023
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#7
I don't think that the roman gods exist in the Sailor Moon-Universe as this series is clearly pushing the idea of girlpower and matriarchy, where the roles are reversed and men are just here to cheer for the senshi or be the bad guys that get destined to die. And the Roman gods are simply an import from Greece, where Zeus (Jupiter) is the undisputed father of the gods.
He wasn´t always interestingly. Poseidon was during the Greek Bronze Age of Minoa and Mycenae. Zeus was a minor sky god. And the Roman gods are not completely interchangeable, the Romans loved Mars far more than the Greeks, minus the Spartans for obvious reasons, did. Regardless, the stories of these deities vary a lot based on where they are and evolved over centuries. I mean, Leonidas against Xerxes to Alexander´s death was over 150 years, or as long as Canada or Germany or even Italy have been a single country, and them to Marcus Aurelius the Stoic would be half a millennium later. Plus, we get only a few written samples from philosophers for the most part, and rarely read what the lower classes thought of these gods and goddesses. These gods were worshipped from Northern England to India, and Herakles (Hercules) even made it to Japan, so the way everyone practiced and believed varied wildly. The Greeks emphasized the legends of the gods and the Romans emphasized the rituals to appease them.

Plus, both are from even older gods common to Indo-European religions hence Zeus and Jupiter, which if you change around the J to a Y sound just as classical Latin did it, you can begin to see how they would be more related. The role of gender there becomes somewhat more tenuous. Some gods were imports, like Aphrodite from Istarte and Ishtar, or when some Roman ambassadors had orders to go and collect a statue of a god from some other city and bring it back to Rome, yoink, you´re our god now.

It could be argued theologically I guess that the writers got it wrong, the women in mythology were more important, Juno was just as important as Jupiter. And who knows what on earth Loki is from the gender perspective. Pangender maybe?

I will add that certain men aren´t only cheerleaders, Mamoru is important to the story and he and Sailor Moon are most powerful when together. She is powerful independently and Mamoru has a few powers of his own. He provides a base of information in the future, is the king and is known as such and is still famous as are all the senshi women, and Usagi matures over the course of the series knowing that it will be important. Mamoru would in the story be good as a man in general, but not hypersexualized either or an object of the world´s desire, that Usagi cares for not just for his looks or money, that she has a genuine reason to love him too just as he does for her, and Mamoru in the manga at least can be like Aragorn at times who is given a good role for a masculine character, to act for justice too, without making his identity as a man based on it. The positive kind of man who will charge into a horde of orcs not for bloodlust or glory but because they are a danger to his people too. That is a good lesson for many men to learn.

Adding a bunch of men to the story would shift the focus away from the Senshi, so you see Shingo and Kenji a little bit, Motoki a bit, the Four Generals, Doctor Tomoe, Demande, Rubeus, Death Phantom, and Sapphir, and a few others, but never outnumbering the women. Also a part of why many magical girls have many of the protagonists other than the principle heroine shipped together in the yuri way. The main heroine gets a man, but adding more men than that would probably not make it so much of a magical girl series, but people want to give them a pairing, so they get each other.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#9
I don't think that the roman gods exist in the Sailor Moon-Universe as this series is clearly pushing the idea of girlpower and matriarchy, where the roles are reversed and men are just here to cheer for the senshi or be the bad guys that get destined to die. And the Roman gods are simply an import from Greece, where Zeus (Jupiter) is the undisputed father of the gods.
Pluto refers to her father Chronos, Serenity says she is known as the Moon Goddess Selene, Artemis mentions Minako being a reincarnation of Venus the Goddess of Beauty.

They exist on some level
 

Thexall

Luna Crescens
Oct 16, 2020
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#10
He wasn´t always interestingly. Poseidon was during the Greek Bronze Age of Minoa and Mycenae. Zeus was a minor sky god. And the Roman gods are not completely interchangeable, the Romans loved Mars far more than the Greeks, minus the Spartans for obvious reasons, did. Regardless, the stories of these deities vary a lot based on where they are and evolved over centuries. I mean, Leonidas against Xerxes to Alexander´s death was over 150 years, or as long as Canada or Germany or even Italy have been a single country, and them to Marcus Aurelius the Stoic would be half a millennium later. Plus, we get only a few written samples from philosophers for the most part, and rarely read what the lower classes thought of these gods and goddesses. These gods were worshipped from Northern England to India, and Herakles (Hercules) even made it to Japan, so the way everyone practiced and believed varied wildly. The Greeks emphasized the legends of the gods and the Romans emphasized the rituals to appease them.

Plus, both are from even older gods common to Indo-European religions hence Zeus and Jupiter, which if you change around the J to a Y sound just as classical Latin did it, you can begin to see how they would be more related. The role of gender there becomes somewhat more tenuous. Some gods were imports, like Aphrodite from Istarte and Ishtar, or when some Roman ambassadors had orders to go and collect a statue of a god from some other city and bring it back to Rome, yoink, you´re our god now.

It could be argued theologically I guess that the writers got it wrong, the women in mythology were more important, Juno was just as important as Jupiter. And who knows what on earth Loki is from the gender perspective. Pangender maybe?
Pluto refers to her father Chronos, Serenity says she is known as the Moon Goddess Selene, Artemis mentions Minako being a reincarnation of Venus the Goddess of Beauty.

They exist on some level
I think it's more of a symbolic referencing as long as we don't really see them on screen. It would massively shift the attention to some really powerful male players if they would exist in the sm-verse and I'm pretty sure that this was not the intention of Takeuchi. Especially since it always seemed to me that they only borrowed their powers (but more from the planets themselves than from Roman gods) rather than actually owning them.

I will add that certain men aren´t only cheerleaders, Mamoru is important to the story and he and Sailor Moon are most powerful when together. She is powerful independently and Mamoru has a few powers of his own. He provides a base of information in the future, is the king and is known as such and is still famous as are all the senshi women, and Usagi matures over the course of the series knowing that it will be important. Mamoru would in the story be good as a man in general, but not hypersexualized either or an object of the world´s desire, that Usagi cares for not just for his looks or money, that she has a genuine reason to love him too just as he does for her, and Mamoru in the manga at least can be like Aragorn at times who is given a good role for a masculine character, to act for justice too, without making his identity as a man based on it. The positive kind of man who will charge into a horde of orcs not for bloodlust or glory but because they are a danger to his people too. That is a good lesson for many men to learn.

Adding a bunch of men to the story would shift the focus away from the Senshi, so you see Shingo and Kenji a little bit, Motoki a bit, the Four Generals, Doctor Tomoe, Demande, Rubeus, Death Phantom, and Sapphir, and a few others, but never outnumbering the women. Also a part of why many magical girls have many of the protagonists other than the principle heroine shipped together in the yuri way. The main heroine gets a man, but adding more men than that would probably not make it so much of a magical girl series, but people want to give them a pairing, so they get each other.
Uh... is he really important to the story (i only saw the 90s anime)? The "But you didn't do anything"-Meme exists for a reason. The only thing that he usually does is distracting the enemy for a very, very short span of a time and giving a... tbh nonsensical speech. The only time where he is somewhat important is when he was brainwashed by Queen Beryl, and S1 is also the only moment where he was somewhat fun/entertaining to watch as a civilian.
iirc, he also doesn't have a episode that is centered around him (to give him some personality). Not even very single one, while the Core-Senshi have iirc at least one in every season. I think of those episodes where Venus was worried about being the only one whose "crystal" (what was their name again?) they didn't even try to steal... or when this little girl copied the identity of Rei.

Don't get me wrong, it's fine that Sailor Moon is a girlspower-Anime, but there is no point in denying that men don't have much to do here. And adding the roman gods would likely shift that balance away from the Senshi for multiple reasons, with the most important being that their powers appear to me as if they are summoned and not their own.
And except for Venus, all roman gods that are named after planets are usually described as male in modern times. It would be like adding an Anti-Sailor Team to the canon.
 
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Jan 4, 2023
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#12
I think it's more of a symbolic referencing as long as we don't really see them on screen. It would massively shift the attention to some really powerful male players if they would exist in the sm-verse and I'm pretty sure that this was not the intention of Takeuchi. Especially since it always seemed to me that they only borrowed their powers (but more from the planets themselves than from Roman gods) rather than actually owning them.



Uh... is he really important to the story (i only saw the 90s anime)? The "But you didn't do anything"-Meme exists for a reason. The only thing that he usually does is distracting the enemy for a very, very short span of a time and giving a... tbh nonsensical speech. The only time where he is somewhat important is when he was brainwashed by Queen Beryl, and S1 is also the only moment where he was somewhat fun/entertaining to watch as a civilian.
iirc, he also doesn't have a episode that is centered around him (to give him some personality). Not even very single one, while the Core-Senshi have iirc at least one in every season. I think of those episodes where Venus was worried about being the only one whose "crystal" (what was their name again?) they didn't even try to steal... or when this little girl copied the identity of Rei.

Don't get me wrong, it's fine that Sailor Moon is a girlspower-Anime, but there is no point in denying that men don't have much to do here. And adding the roman gods would likely shift that balance away from the Senshi for multiple reasons, with the most important being that their powers appear to me as if they are summoned and not their own.
And except for Venus, all roman gods that are named after planets are usually described as male in modern times. It would be like adding an Anti-Sailor Team to the canon.
It´s more important in the manga. He acts as a healer to some extent. Caring for Chibiusa and giving her vital care when Usagi can´t be there is a big task. Look how mentally depressed Usagi gets when Galaxia killed him. And he does a couple of times kill a few of the BMC with the smoking bomber. He is smart and does research on things, presumably with Luna and Artemis. It keeps back to keep the focus on the feminine side of the story but if you look deep enough you can see what a boy can do to avoid the tropes men can have like being the one to save the girls all the time, which is the idea, and yet be relevant for someone. When people are at a day job or volunteer work they focus on their task at hand but they know well who they are doing it to support and be friends with after the job is done.

As for the Roman gods, it seems like just an invocation phrase, and could be done without it by their will.
 
Jun 8, 2023
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#13
Well, in ancient belief about the Greco-Roman gods, they were not necessarily in a particular form or body. Zeus in the form of a swan would remind people of that. They could be any form. In some ways they were the humanization of forces and aspects of life in those days, given a consciousness, and to be respected for the power they demonstrated periodically such as when earthquakes struck in the Bronze Age Collapse around 3100 years ago or the common ocean storms, the bolts of lightning of Jupiter, the love and being sexy that Venus could offer or take away, the wisdom and commerce of Mercury, etc. It could be random, but also coincide with fortune for particular individuals and the righteous or villainous acts they did but others could not prove either way or had suspicions and left it up to observing natural forces to see if the gods, with their knowledge, knew things that humans did not know and would express it by their natural forces. Humans like to think of meaning in things even when there might not be. Randomness means that things are more likely to be disordered than ordered, but complete disorder is essentially impossible.

Have you ever seen HBO´s Rome? In one episode two Roman soldiers wash up on a Greek beach and manage to take an important enemy of Julius Caesar prisoner and return to Caesar. Even though in the process they had disobeyed the wishes of Caesar, Caesar was not going to punish two people who had such good fortune given that the gods knew something Caesar didn´t and seemed to want this to happen. That wasn´t a real story but the thinking is real, at least those with significantly religious beliefs, and Caesar definitely seems to believe in destiny in history.

If one wished, they could create a religion out of the fundamental forces of the universe like gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces, and electromagnetism forces. That would be a little strange but some people do kinds of religious interpretation from such phenomena, like pantheists or people who attribute something divine to the Big Bang. Pythagoras and his followers in Southern Italy thought that mathematics and geometry was a divine activity to find out what the gods meant the universe to have and unlock its perfection.

A monotheistic god is usually given the attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and omniscience, eternal existence in both directions that had no before or after, and is an absolute sovereign. Polytheistic ones don´t tend to, but they usually have aspects of immense power, eternal existence at least from a starting point or can only be killed by other divine forces such as Ragnorök, some degree of telepathy, the control of natural forces in violation of the laws of conservation of energy and matter (or at least it would explain why Usagi eats so much when she can easily unleash forces equal to megatonnes of TNT in seconds), and similar, and that does reflect the traits of the Senshi. Not immortal in the same way but abiding by reincarnation, they do exist eternally, they are obviously powerful, they do have telepathy although not omniscience (or else Usagi´s grades would be much better), and quite a lot of other traits.

Sailor Venus does behave a lot like the original one, especially Aphrodite Areia, just as capable of beating you down to a pulp and getting very horny very quickly, and that form of her was adored by the Spartans unsurprisingly.
Thank you! I haven't seen the show Rome, but appreciate your view.

If anything Sailor Cosmos is more Isis then Ma'at.
Yep, thanks for the reminder!
Pluto refers to her father Chronos, Serenity says she is known as the Moon Goddess Selene, Artemis mentions Minako being a reincarnation of Venus the Goddess of Beauty.

They exist on some level
Good points, I recall these now as well.
 
Jan 4, 2023
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#14
Thank you! I haven't seen the show Rome, but appreciate your view.


Yep, thanks for the reminder!

Good points, I recall these now as well.
Religion to many people speaking English with the Abrahamic European conception of religion, especially Christian, seems obvious, when many of its features are not inherent. The idea of eternal judgment (many religions have moral judgment but it´s not necessarily something the principal god does), that this judgment is always extreme torment, that justice follows the principal god, and a lot of different things.

Judaism for instance has a very different conception of what happens following a person´s death, and frankly its actually very odd that Christianity developed such a different view. It would be a year (query what a year meant in that sense given the way religion can use metaphors a lot) of cleansing, a cyclone perhaps, of one´s sins. It could also be said that evil enough souls are destroyed in an absolute sense, that there literally is nothing for them to experience thereafter. Christianity has a few strains that suggest this might be the case too, based on the way Christianity uses the words eternal life and eternal death even after one´s current body has died, but the main depiction most Christians have is very different, although some of this is more so the cultural influence of its artists and writers like Hieronymus Bosch and Dante for their terrifying drawings than being true to scripture and doctrine.

Islam in many ways was an attempt to be a social revolution, immediately, led by a prophet who would achieve the social community of God, to do away with things seen to be unjust in the day like usury, providing for social pensions for widowers and orphans, providing a fund to pay for that pension and for freeing slaves (even more important given that slavery was done by nearly all societies with a sufficient food surplus and even a strong king rarely if ever could defeat it, at best reform it like Justinian or Khosrow who ruled shortly before Mohammed was born), and create a law code and faith that could not be broken up into extremely complicated doctrinal problems with a Trinity as Christianity very often had (the Quran spends a lot of time emphasizing the unity of God and that Islam did not have a Trinity to end any doubt), did not need any wealth or displays of it (their ban on idolotry), and that transcended tribes, skin colour, language, and geographic location, did not need a clergy dependent on political rulers and anything like wealth but only on the social acceptance by a community of any imam who held no role, privileges or title except what weight the people gave their interpretations of the law, such laws of God even binding kings and caliphs where Roman law, Christians and followers of God though they were, had not bound the emperors who issued them (the Byzantines were never not Romans to themselves or to the Muslims), and quickly did away with the old ruling classes of Yathrib (Medina), Mecca, and shortly after Mohammed died, defeated the Romans and Sassanids to take over Iran, Egypt, Syria, and even go out to Spain.

Well meaning idea in its day perhaps, or at least many of its own followers thought they were doing a reasonably obvious thing to do. It was the communism of its day for many people left aside from the 30 year long war between the Romans and Persians leaving the people vulnerable in its wake, where the Plague of Justinian killed at least a quarter of both empires and swept through Arabia too, and where civil war, gang conflict, arguments between merchants and the old priestly classes and their kings, and ethnic conflict wrecked the city states near the Red Sea like Mecca. It doesn´t really feature in Sailor Moon, although Arabic culture does a few times like the Moonlight Knight and his sabre and the Islamic domes that Silver Millennium was apparently fond of.

Buddhism is in many ways an attempt to find a middle path, where a prince, Siddhartha Gautama, the heir to a great state, isolated from society, went out and witnessed firsthand life´s hardships having been secluded from them, and which shocked him for the first time whereas everyone else had seen it all and grown used to it, forgetting to remember the hardships they were and so many of them were avoidable. He thought of secluding himself again, but didn´t bring him any benefit, and nearly starved to death, but neither did his excess of joy. He found that when life is fleeting, bind yourself to not need to have anything, you will never have it forever, and treat others justly and there is nothing about you for them to hate or for you to hate about them, accept that, and you can be free, and allow for when death takes you, you are not afraid for you didn´t need this life anyway and miss nothing about it, have no grudges left unfinished, and are ready for whatever is next. There is no caste system in Buddhism as India had and still has, anyone could achieve these goals if they follow the eightfold path. The gods themselves are just as subject to this cycle, as are the creatures of the world. Nothing lasts forever, not even hell (Naraka), but neither does anything good. Buddhism´s perspective on the end of the world, eschatology, is actually much closer to what scientists thing will happen to the Earth than pretty much any other religion I know (Seven Sun Sermon).

Japan´s indigenous religion is much like an animist one, not pantheistic, but also much like many religions in the past for many tribes and societies. A set of gods awoke from some reason, and organized Japan and the other lands it knew. They were important, but the biggest thing to deal with is ensuring the kami, for lack of a good translation, are satiated and are not angry. It doesn´t matter much what you think of them, or even believe they exist, but as a precaution, you can leave things around to preclude a problem later on, and one should live purely to avoid disease and dangers, remembering of course that epidemic disease was by far the biggest killer in human history and was until a few decades ago when cardiovascular diseases and cancer took over which do not spread from person to person or as a result of an infection. It is not important what an individual believes, but the community as a whole would be wise to prevent a dead ancestor from having wishes unfulfilled or their reputation being dishnoured.

Not even Rei necessarily believes in the Kami actually being gods of any kind, but likely does acts which make sure they are satisfied if they are, IE orthopraxy (right acts), not orthodoxy (right beliefs). Rei knows well how a volcano works from tectonic activity, why the Sun shines with the power of nuclear fusion, why diseases spread, all sorts of things that make it not as interesting to religiously believe in anything, but the fables and myths they have are repeated to us to help us learn how to behave well in a social community just as we tell ourselves Greek and Roman myths and Norse myths too (oddly enough not the Anglo-Saxon versions all that much except maybe Beowülf) even though almost nobody believes in those religions anymore.

Extra Credits: Mythology, has an interesting definition of myth that I like. Myths are not stories that are untrue, rather they are tales that don´t fit neatly into the historical record that serve as the foundation of a culture. I really like that definition. Perhaps it is not true that Romulus founded the city of Rome and was never their first king. So what? The city bears his name regardless, and the people of Rome today see the legacy of the city itself the world over thousands of years later. So what if it isn´t true that Venus was having sex with Mars on a bed somewhere and Vulcan got mad and so forged a chain to ensnare them and invited the other gods to laugh at the two. People still see Mars and Venus, easily with their naked eye by just looking up at night. And I imagine many SM fans would smile if they saw Venus and Mars doing that...
 

saintfighteraqua

Aurorae Lunares
Feb 16, 2021
1,126
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#15
I don't think they exist as physical beings, at least not in this realm.
Calling her the goddess Venus is probably because she is literally the incarnation of the planet Venus. Artemis does state she had many lovers, so if Serenity inspired the Selene/Endymion story then Venus probably is supposed to be the inspiration for the Aphrodite myths.
Something else to remember would be how Venus was partially adapted from older goddesses like Aphrodite, Astarte, Inanna and in turn was a counterpart (at least in Roman eyes) of gods like Freya.

In the Sailor Moon universe, the myths exist, but I don't think there was a war where Sailor Uranus was neutered by Sailor Saturn who also ate Sailor Neptune, Ceres, Juno, Pluto and Vesta, was later defeated by Sailor Jupiter who became their leader.
I think it's just since the ancient people connected their gods with the planets and the planets also seemed connected to certain attributes (Mars is almost universally war and/or fire) it just works out.

Another question would be did the planets get named for the gods or vice versa? What language was spoken on those planets? Latin? Was it Sailor Ares before Sailor Mars?

Is Chronos Cronus who was also Saturn? Does that mean Hotaru is both Setsuna's daughter and father? :cthulhu:
 

JuanGarcia1982

Luna Crescens
Apr 3, 2023
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#18
Religion to many people speaking English with the Abrahamic European conception of religion, especially Christian, seems obvious, when many of its features are not inherent. The idea of eternal judgment (many religions have moral judgment but it´s not necessarily something the principal god does), that this judgment is always extreme torment, that justice follows the principal god, and a lot of different things.

Judaism for instance has a very different conception of what happens following a person´s death, and frankly its actually very odd that Christianity developed such a different view. It would be a year (query what a year meant in that sense given the way religion can use metaphors a lot) of cleansing, a cyclone perhaps, of one´s sins. It could also be said that evil enough souls are destroyed in an absolute sense, that there literally is nothing for them to experience thereafter. Christianity has a few strains that suggest this might be the case too, based on the way Christianity uses the words eternal life and eternal death even after one´s current body has died, but the main depiction most Christians have is very different, although some of this is more so the cultural influence of its artists and writers like Hieronymus Bosch and Dante for their terrifying drawings than being true to scripture and doctrine.

Islam in many ways was an attempt to be a social revolution, immediately, led by a prophet who would achieve the social community of God, to do away with things seen to be unjust in the day like usury, providing for social pensions for widowers and orphans, providing a fund to pay for that pension and for freeing slaves (even more important given that slavery was done by nearly all societies with a sufficient food surplus and even a strong king rarely if ever could defeat it, at best reform it like Justinian or Khosrow who ruled shortly before Mohammed was born), and create a law code and faith that could not be broken up into extremely complicated doctrinal problems with a Trinity as Christianity very often had (the Quran spends a lot of time emphasizing the unity of God and that Islam did not have a Trinity to end any doubt), did not need any wealth or displays of it (their ban on idolotry), and that transcended tribes, skin colour, language, and geographic location, did not need a clergy dependent on political rulers and anything like wealth but only on the social acceptance by a community of any imam who held no role, privileges or title except what weight the people gave their interpretations of the law, such laws of God even binding kings and caliphs where Roman law, Christians and followers of God though they were, had not bound the emperors who issued them (the Byzantines were never not Romans to themselves or to the Muslims), and quickly did away with the old ruling classes of Yathrib (Medina), Mecca, and shortly after Mohammed died, defeated the Romans and Sassanids to take over Iran, Egypt, Syria, and even go out to Spain.

Well meaning idea in its day perhaps, or at least many of its own followers thought they were doing a reasonably obvious thing to do. It was the communism of its day for many people left aside from the 30 year long war between the Romans and Persians leaving the people vulnerable in its wake, where the Plague of Justinian killed at least a quarter of both empires and swept through Arabia too, and where civil war, gang conflict, arguments between merchants and the old priestly classes and their kings, and ethnic conflict wrecked the city states near the Red Sea like Mecca. It doesn´t really feature in Sailor Moon, although Arabic culture does a few times like the Moonlight Knight and his sabre and the Islamic domes that Silver Millennium was apparently fond of.

Buddhism is in many ways an attempt to find a middle path, where a prince, Siddhartha Gautama, the heir to a great state, isolated from society, went out and witnessed firsthand life´s hardships having been secluded from them, and which shocked him for the first time whereas everyone else had seen it all and grown used to it, forgetting to remember the hardships they were and so many of them were avoidable. He thought of secluding himself again, but didn´t bring him any benefit, and nearly starved to death, but neither did his excess of joy. He found that when life is fleeting, bind yourself to not need to have anything, you will never have it forever, and treat others justly and there is nothing about you for them to hate or for you to hate about them, accept that, and you can be free, and allow for when death takes you, you are not afraid for you didn´t need this life anyway and miss nothing about it, have no grudges left unfinished, and are ready for whatever is next. There is no caste system in Buddhism as India had and still has, anyone could achieve these goals if they follow the eightfold path. The gods themselves are just as subject to this cycle, as are the creatures of the world. Nothing lasts forever, not even hell (Naraka), but neither does anything good. Buddhism´s perspective on the end of the world, eschatology, is actually much closer to what scientists thing will happen to the Earth than pretty much any other religion I know (Seven Sun Sermon).

Japan´s indigenous religion is much like an animist one, not pantheistic, but also much like many religions in the past for many tribes and societies. A set of gods awoke from some reason, and organized Japan and the other lands it knew. They were important, but the biggest thing to deal with is ensuring the kami, for lack of a good translation, are satiated and are not angry. It doesn´t matter much what you think of them, or even believe they exist, but as a precaution, you can leave things around to preclude a problem later on, and one should live purely to avoid disease and dangers, remembering of course that epidemic disease was by far the biggest killer in human history and was until a few decades ago when cardiovascular diseases and cancer took over which do not spread from person to person or as a result of an infection. It is not important what an individual believes, but the community as a whole would be wise to prevent a dead ancestor from having wishes unfulfilled or their reputation being dishnoured.

Not even Rei necessarily believes in the Kami actually being gods of any kind, but likely does acts which make sure they are satisfied if they are, IE orthopraxy (right acts), not orthodoxy (right beliefs). Rei knows well how a volcano works from tectonic activity, why the Sun shines with the power of nuclear fusion, why diseases spread, all sorts of things that make it not as interesting to religiously believe in anything, but the fables and myths they have are repeated to us to help us learn how to behave well in a social community just as we tell ourselves Greek and Roman myths and Norse myths too (oddly enough not the Anglo-Saxon versions all that much except maybe Beowülf) even though almost nobody believes in those religions anymore.

Extra Credits: Mythology, has an interesting definition of myth that I like. Myths are not stories that are untrue, rather they are tales that don´t fit neatly into the historical record that serve as the foundation of a culture. I really like that definition. Perhaps it is not true that Romulus founded the city of Rome and was never their first king. So what? The city bears his name regardless, and the people of Rome today see the legacy of the city itself the world over thousands of years later. So what if it isn´t true that Venus was having sex with Mars on a bed somewhere and Vulcan got mad and so forged a chain to ensnare them and invited the other gods to laugh at the two. People still see Mars and Venus, easily with their naked eye by just looking up at night. And I imagine many SM fans would smile if they saw Venus and Mars doing that...
You good!

My two cents on the gods... You pretty much summed it up Charon. (Appropriate name I should say!)

Queen Serenity and Selene... I my translation of the manga the text reads "they worshiped me as the moon goddess Selene." What does that mean? There was a literal goddess named Selene and Serenity was her? That there was a Selene and the people of Earth just though Serenity was her? There never was a Selene and Serenity just inspired the legend of her?

(Ad yes, I've see Percy Jackson Sailor Moon crossovers)

I side with the last one. The classical gods of old Greece and old Rome did not exist but were inspired by faint memories of the Queens and Kings of the Silver Millennium. The idea that the mythology is a exaggerated retelling of historical events is called Euhemerism and is a old idea indeed

Being that Serenity was perhaps immortal and she definitely had magical powers it is understandable that some people might think her a god. But would that not by definition make her a god? Depends.

In myth, the lie between a minor god and a powerful spirit/magical creature is narrow. That's because unlike the God of monotheism who due to His being the god of everything and thus de facto all powerful, the gods of polytheism don't have to be that big to be seen as legit. Heck, Dobby the house elf from Harry Potter was a god according to the original mythologies he was inspired from--albeit a very minor household god.

Is Queen Serenity and her fellow Silver Millennium monarchs all powerful creators of universes who hold the souls of their billion trillion worshipers in their hands? Are the myths that the people of Greece and Rome told about them accurate? No, but if Dobby can be called a god, Queen can certainly also claim that title.

Thus the Sailors relationships to their gods... "Hi mom, hi dad!"
 
Jan 4, 2023
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#19
You good!

My two cents on the gods... You pretty much summed it up Charon. (Appropriate name I should say!)

Queen Serenity and Selene... I my translation of the manga the text reads "they worshiped me as the moon goddess Selene." What does that mean? There was a literal goddess named Selene and Serenity was her? That there was a Selene and the people of Earth just though Serenity was her? There never was a Selene and Serenity just inspired the legend of her?

(Ad yes, I've see Percy Jackson Sailor Moon crossovers)

I side with the last one. The classical gods of old Greece and old Rome did not exist but were inspired by faint memories of the Queens and Kings of the Silver Millennium. The idea that the mythology is a exaggerated retelling of historical events is called Euhemerism and is a old idea indeed

Being that Serenity was perhaps immortal and she definitely had magical powers it is understandable that some people might think her a god. But would that not by definition make her a god? Depends.

In myth, the lie between a minor god and a powerful spirit/magical creature is narrow. That's because unlike the God of monotheism who due to His being the god of everything and thus de facto all powerful, the gods of polytheism don't have to be that big to be seen as legit. Heck, Dobby the house elf from Harry Potter was a god according to the original mythologies he was inspired from--albeit a very minor household god.

Is Queen Serenity and her fellow Silver Millennium monarchs all powerful creators of universes who hold the souls of their billion trillion worshipers in their hands? Are the myths that the people of Greece and Rome told about them accurate? No, but if Dobby can be called a god, Queen can certainly also claim that title.

Thus the Sailors relationships to their gods... "Hi mom, hi dad!"
Venus is often referred to as a goddess of love in the present tense. Although given that anyone good at being romantic, frisky, or similar, or all of them, could be called that, many I imagine would like their partner, like a certain Taiki Kou was asked to be, to say that they are to them, maybe that isn´t conclusive. Artemis does say it though...

Also, monotheism is not necessarily the Abrahamic version. It´s by far the most common version, in fact it´s the most common religious system in the world with something like 57% of the world being part of it, but there are others with different views of the sole god. Zoroastrianism is a good example, where the sole god still has a devil as a rival, who will be defeated in a great battle at the end of time. If this is familiar, then you aren´t wrong if you thought it had influence on Abrahamic faiths. They could be the most powerful figure in the universe but the universe itself is not necessarily subject to their will or predated them. It varies a lot. And some religions might say some things are expressions of the same god, which is part of the idea of the Trinity in Christianity, some Plains Indians in the United States might express something like that as part of the Great Mother Chief. It´s complicated with how many versions you can find. Pantheism is the idea that the universe itself and literally everything in it is part of the same god, which is not a personal one but simply is.

As for the Queens of the Silver Crystal Dynasty being gods in their own right, well, they have the servant Sailor Saturn (much like Jupiter and Hades had power over Thanatos), who can destroy the world on command if they so wish. That makes at least one of them a goddess in their own rights by that standard of billions of lives in the hands of one consciousness. If we told the Romans that the supreme magistrates of the United States, like an elected king who serves four years, has command over the phenomena we know as nuclear fusion, us describing what that terrible and awesome power is, they would wonder if they were gods. They made their emperors gods upon their deaths after all, and they had nothing of the sort of power nuclear weapons offer.

I guess a god is simply what a majority of people who study them will say they are. It varies across languages anyway to start with.
 

Rika-Chicchi

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May 7, 2009
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#20
Pantheism is the idea that the universe itself and literally everything in it is part of the same god, which is not a personal one but simply is.
So we're actually (infinitesimally tiny) parts of God - like everything else in the universe, we're all chibi gods. =^_^=